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Politics : GENEVA ACCORD -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: John Soileau who wrote (124)	12/9/2003 4:19:12 PM
From: marcos	Respond to of 190

It is a major strength of israelis that they are not all rabid ultra-zionist likudniks spouting the party line in unison ... they have considerable dissent - jewsnotzionists, b'tselem [sp?], jewsforjustice, tikkun, etc .. [which are all dot org or dot com sites found here - cactus48.com ] It is a major weakness of the indigenous that we do not see them arguing openly among themselves as to ultimate goals and methods of achieving them .... it does not matter whether this comes about through unwillingness to explore options or a cultural predilection to obey orders of clerics - it is weakness, period Hardliners on both sides see it the other way round, of course ... but they're wrong, a society is not an army, its lands are not a parade ground ..... free speech will win in the end, and palestinians have to smarten up on this, more than the other side does at the moment, imho

To: John Soileau who wrote (124)	12/9/2003 4:37:39 PM
From: Nadine Carroll	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 190

And the effect of using the international community to try to pressure the Palestinians is already very cheering to the Israelis. The US pressures the Palestinians. The international community pressures the Israelis. Haven't you read the score yet? The "hysteria" approach to the GA (the Swiss piece of paper destroys sovereignty, brings an end to the Israeli State, causes Jews to argue amongst themselves, gnashing of teeth, tearing of cloth) seems to emanate from Likudniks. Remember, it's a proposal for a voluntary resolution, there are no Swiss armies training for an occupation! Look, John, Halevi is no Likudnik. He is a centrist. If you had been reading his columns for the last three years, you'd know that. If he is alarmed at a bunch of out-of-office politicians making major concensions on behalf of Israel for a bunch of vague promises from proven liars, I'd say he has reason to be alarmed. Truth of the matter is, no sitting government wants to see citizens rally toward a tangible expression of impatience with its policy and timing True, no country at war needs to see a defeatist movement among its people, driven by wishful thinking. And it is the most wishful of thinking. All those polls showing some Israelis interested in the Geneva deal have one unspoken assumption, i.e. Would you support this deal if it were a real deal?. It's not a real deal. It's the Oslo Ruse, Part II. If the Palestinians had new, democratic leadership, there might at least be doubt on that score, but with this crowd there is no doubt. The Palestinians are negotiating the same chits they bargained with at Olso: recognition of Israel (though here they couldn't even bring themselves to utter the word "Jewish" in connection with Israel), an end to terrorism, peaceful co-existence. And Beilin has breezily given away every safeguard that the Israelis could rely on, if by any strange chance the Palestinians are lying again, as they did before. Beilin clearly never heard the old saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." The international community has taught the Palestinians that not only is it effective to negotiate their gripes with suicide bombers, it is legitimate as well, in everybody's eyes but Israel's and the US' (& maybe a few minds are changing in Riyadh and Istanbul). Well, why should they give up such a useful tool? You think they won't have gripes at any point in the future, even if this deal got signed? You seem to be under the illusion that Arafat wants a state, it would make him happy. Nothing could be further from the truth, as events make clear. Arafat regards a state as a punishment that others are trying to force on him. He doesn't want to lead the 23rd Arab autocracy. Arafat wants to lead the armed struggle to the destruction of Israel. If Arafat had ever wanted a state, he would have one by now. Enough people have been trying to give him one.