Silicon Investor (SI) -- The First Internet Community

STOCKTALK

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor. We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community. If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.

Politics : Stockman Scott's Political Debate Porch -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Mannie who wrote (32549)	12/10/2003 7:33:57 PM
From: Crimson Ghost	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 89467

This would be funny if it was not so tragic. Notice how the mainstream US press equates the quislings put in power by the US with "Iraq" The foreign press is much more objective in its descriptions. AP: Iraq to Stop Counting Civilian Dead Wed Dec 10, 2:17 PM ET By NIKO PRICE, Associated Press Writer BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraqi Health Ministry officials ordered a halt to a count of civilian casualties from the war and told workers not to release figures already compiled, the head of the ministry's statistics department told The Associated Press on Wednesday. AP Photo Latest headlines: · Annan says Iraq still too dangerous for UN AFP - 14 minutes ago · Snow, Baker, stress importance of settling Iraq's debt to country's future AFP - 15 minutes ago · US bars Iraq war foes from multibillion-dollar contracts AFP - 24 minutes ago Special Coverage The health minister, Dr. Khodeir Abbas, denied that he or the U.S.-led occupation authority had anything to do with the order, and said he didn't even know about the survey of deaths, which number in the thousands. Dr. Nagham Mohsen, the head of the ministry's statistics department, said the order came from the ministry's director of planning, Dr. Nazar Shabandar, who told her it was on behalf of Abbas. She said the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority, which oversees the ministry, didn't like the idea of the count either. "We have stopped the collection of this information because our minister didn't agree with it," she said, adding: "The CPA doesn't want this to be done." Abbas, whose secretary said he was out of the country, sent an e-mail denying the charge. "I have no knowledge of a civilian war casualty survey even being started by the Ministry of Health, much less stopping it," he wrote. "The CPA did not direct me to stop any such survey either." "Plain and simple, this is false information," he added. Despite Abbas' comments, the Health Ministry's civilian death toll count had been reported by news media as early as August, and the count was widely anticipated by human rights organizations. The ministry issued a preliminary figure of 1,764 deaths during the summer. A spokesman for the CPA confirmed the authenticity of the e-mail, saying the occupation authority contacted the minister by phone and asked him to respond. The CPA didn't provide a phone number, and the minister didn't respond to e-mails requesting further comment. The CPA spokesman said the coalition had no comment. Shabandar's office said he was attending a conference in Egypt. The U.S. military doesn't count civilian casualties from its wars, saying only that it tries to minimize civilian deaths. Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch, called that policy irresponsible. "That deliberate ignorance of the past risks condemning the U.S. military to repeating its mistakes into the future and needlessly risking further civilian deaths," he said by telephone from New York. Roth said the government doesn't count because "politically, it's embarrassing to talk about civilian casualties in one's war effort." The Associated Press conducted a major investigation of Iraq (news - web sites)'s wartime civilian casualties, documenting the deaths of 3,240 civilians between March 20 and April 20. That investigation, conducted in May and June, surveyed about half of Iraq's hospitals, and reported that the real number of civilian deaths was sure to be much higher. The Health Ministry's count, which was to be based on the records of all Iraq's hospitals, promised to be more complete.

To: Mannie who wrote (32549)	12/10/2003 11:31:14 PM
From: stockman_scott	Respond to of 89467

Clark makes the most of the moment ________________________________ By Scot Lehigh The Boston Globe 12/10/2003 YOU'RE LEFT shaking your head after a "debate" like this. It's bad enough that the unwieldy field of nine makes any meaningful examination of the issues exceedingly difficult -- and, indeed, encourages a quick retreat to the standard tropes the candidates use every day. (Dick Gephardt does it so often he now introduces the quick link back to his stump speech by noting: "As I often say . . . ") But throw in Ted Koppel fairly radiating self-satisfaction as he wasted precious minutes pursuing questions that might politely be called inane and the whole event became maddening indeed. Still, frustrating as the forum was, presidential politics is about making the most of the moment. The candidate who came closest to that last night was General Wesley Clark. When he began his campaign, Clark was a decidedly uncertain trumpet, but in several answers last night he spoke with both conviction and seeming expertise about the United States and its role in the world. Asked if foreign policy questions were truly paramount in an election when many voters say they are concerned about the economy, health care, and the like, Clark made an important (if self-serving) political point that his fellow Democrats shouldn't lose sight of: "We have to be the party that can stand toe to toe with George W. Bush on national security as well as the party of compassion." Too often these debates devolve into a contest to see who can denounce the Republican incumbent in the strongest terms, a tedious exercise that emits a good deal more heat than light. It was refreshing to hear Clark say he wanted to put emotions aside and discuss, in a little detail, his plan to reshape the American presence in Iraq. Clark maintained that the UN is not able to take over the Iraqi mission and that "nobody can provide security for the Iraqis as they develop their own internal defenses except for a force under US leadership." That, Clark said, means creating an international organization to administer Iraq, with the US troops reporting through NATO and working toward a clearly defined goal: a unified Iraq, with some sort of representative government, a country strong enough to repel Al Qaeda but not so strong as to threaten its neighbors. Are those plans realistic? In a true debate, viewers might have gotten a good exchange. Last night's forum didn't offer that opportunity. Still, at a time when the race for the number-two spot in New Hampshire is wide open, Clark made it clear he was a candidate worth listening to. Scot Lehigh's e-mail address is lehigh@globe.com. © Copyright 2003 Globe Newspaper Company. boston.com