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To: IngotWeTrust who wrote (19910)	12/24/2003 11:30:22 PM
From: Jamey	Respond to of 81137

<<I'm appalled at the lack of even "enlightened" loyalty >> You are appalled and I'm frightened by this lack of loyalty to our country. It's been sixty years since we fought for our freedom and the citizens of that era were well aware of the sacrifice it took to ensure those freedoms. There are few left to carry the flag of honor and I am afraid that today's population takes freedom too lightly. They have never had to sacrifice the way our parents and grandparents did for freedom so they love to find a conspiracy lurking behind every corner. I have said before, if you don't like the present government then vote them out! Its not to easy to run a nation that is filled with every race and belief and have things always run smoothly. Maybe there is a few conspiracies but they will be found out or taken care of in God's own time. Mery Christmas, G_T and to All. James

To: IngotWeTrust who wrote (19910)	12/25/2003 6:00:18 AM
From: sea_urchin	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 81137

Rose, thank you and Merry Christmas to you. I am glad you appreciate my contribution to a better world. And out of respect to you and your once great nation, I will not post here for 24 hours. Anyway, I'm going out for the day to see what Santa brought my grandchildren. As far as this place where I am is concerned, you are welcome to do as you please. Africa could hardly be messed up more than the people who live here have done --- and will do in the future, if that's at all possible. And a happy 2004, brim full of more pleasant surprises for all of us.

To: IngotWeTrust who wrote (19910)	12/26/2003 9:27:58 AM
From: mcg404	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 81137

<I'm appalled at the lack of even "enlightened" loyalty that pervades this thread> Your statement implies that loyalty is an inherently positive human characteristic (the absence of which is appalling). I'd argue it is, at best, a double edged sword that requires some constraints. I was somewhat amused last week with the noise about the capture of Saddam last week - the suggestion that the world was a safer place with the evil murderer behind bars. When we all know that Saddam was not individually responsible for a single victim of those who died under his government (ok, i don't really know, but a handful at best). And of course, it is the same with Hitler and most of the other psychopaths that have throughout history, come into power and directed a society (of regular people like you and me)to commit atrocities. And this is all possible, to some meaningful extent, because of loyalty. Of course we could debate whether it is really loyalty, or obedience or coercion but at the end of the discussion i think we'd agree, at some level, that it's all a variation of that human tendency towards tribalism - that desire of people to align themselves with the group in order to enjoy the benefits of inclusion. And, of course, the tribal instinct isn't all bad because without the willingness of people to subordinate their our desires for that of the group we'd have anarchy. But in any case, like all the other characteristics that allows our ancestors to win the evolutionary battle for survival, we should examine where it works positively and where it creates unnecessary conflict and harm. Does a citizen have a duty to support their country? Yes. Unswerving allegiance? No (not for me anyways).

To: IngotWeTrust who wrote (19910)	12/26/2003 9:54:54 AM
From: Raymond Duray	Respond to of 81137

I'm appalled at the lack of even "enlightened" loyalty that pervades this thread from those who live withIN our lovely boundaries to one who does not. Your relentless attack and total negativity of a nation, and by extension her peoples, not your own is even more appalling. So, in other words, you'd rather wallow in your fantasies than face reality? What, in reality, you are unwisely asking us all to do is to not report what is clearly treasonous and illegal activities being engaged in by the Bush Administration. The invasion of Iraq was illegal. Bush's stonewalling of 9/11 investigations is illegal. His pandering to corporate interests is clearly unethical and in opposition to the public interest. What you want, apparently, is self-censorship. How un-American is that? "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the President right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." --President Theodore Roosevelt