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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: O'Hara who wrote (36145)	1/2/2004 12:17:46 AM
From: Berry Picker	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

I would love to answer any or all of those question Shalom. I will start with the one you chose - out of time tonight. Will attempt to be brief as well - something I find difficult. Brian

To: O'Hara who wrote (36145)	1/4/2004 10:52:38 PM
From: Berry Picker	Respond to of 39621

Shalom - I have not forgotten you - in fact I wrote a post today in answer to your question but I it was long winded and wandered too much from the point in question. I do not want to bore you - nor to give you a half hearted response. I will rewrite and post to you as soon as I can feel semi-satisfied that the post is at least coherent. I would rather take time and give a good answer than a fast one. Brian

To: O'Hara who wrote (36145)	1/11/2004 5:51:47 PM
From: Berry Picker	Respond to of 39621

"Why did God allow Judas to be born if He knew he would suffer in hell forever?" Sorry for taking so long Shalom - I wrote a book to you and rambled on and on - something I am famous for. I wrote this now instead - it is much shorter and hopefully to the point but more than this - I hope you find it convincing and true. "Why did God allow Judas to be born if He knew he would suffer in hell forever?" This is as good a choice as any – although more than one question was designed to capture the interest and make manifest the falsehood of those who believe a very basic and yet chronically wrong concept. The idea that God wants all men saved Anyone want to count which question strike at this belief? Message 19645479 Now the answer as all parties should agree must be gleaned from scripture. Romans 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? And again it is written: Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. Now if the answer to our question is “secret” and not revealed – and I simply speculate what I think He must think – I become an idolater. Unfortunately that is what most Christian do when they come to these kinds of questions. They maintain the false notion that God’s number one interest is to keep all men out of hell and then speculate on why God would not stop Judas from being born. Here is unfortunately the best of their speculative answers: God made man with “free will” and handcuffed Himself from ever interfering with this gift. God can foresee that Judas would betray him but has bound Himself from interfering with the free will choices of men – God would violate the gift of free will if He had stopped Judas from betraying Christ or stopped his birth Well – first God does interfere – that can easily be proven – poor Paul was struck Blind on the road to Damascus for one – others struck dead. The theory about God protecting our “precious free will” is foolishness. Men are not free they are slaves of sin – they are dead in sin – married to it. Also – it was ordained of God for Christ to die. God did not merely ordain the event and then leave the details to chance. Judas was also ordained to betray Jesus. Jesus said this about Judas Matthew 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Woe to Judas – it would be better for him to have never been born. The question was : "Why did God allow Judas to be born if He knew he would suffer in hell forever?" No matter what men believe – if they believe God ordains everything that comes to pass or whether they believe He only foresees it – Jesus KNEW beforehand that Judas would betray Him and allowed it – if not foreordained it. Now it is no secret to any who read my posts that I believe in Absolute predestination or in simple terms – that nothing happens that God has not planned – good or evil. But to those who cannot accept this truth – they must concede that God at least ‘foresees’ and then ‘allows’ evil which to my mind makes no real moral difference. If a man sees a little girl crossing a street in heavy traffic and does nothing to stop it. Is that man without guilt? (I do not accuse God of guilt – I speak as a man) Reducing God’s predestined plans to terms such as “allow” do nothing If God can stop it and does not then He must INTEND for it to happen. What else is said of Judas: John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. The verse says “is” a devil – not – “will soon become” In other word Jesus intentionally chose Judas as one of the twelve knowing he WAS already a “devil”. (belonging to satan - a goat and not a sheep) Some maintain that Jesus tried to save all twelve and failed – I say blasphemy! Look at what else is said: John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. We need to ask “from the beginning of what”? From the beginning of His ministry? Or from the beginning of the world? Is it possible that Jesus only knew this from the beginning of His ministry as Some may try to suggest to avoid obvious conclusions? It it possible that Jesus only “LEARNED” this after coming to earth? UTTER FOOLISHNESS Judas was “ordained” to this evil. How can one say that? Because it was prophesied before Judas was ever born – and prophecy cannot be broken. Is there any place that it is plainly taught that any are “ordained” to do evil? Yes: Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Being “ordained” Before of old to this condemnation. They crept in unaware – but not unaware to God – unaware to the church only. Jesus knew who would betray Him before the world began but did not stop it. In fact Jesus says He chose His disciples – they did not chose Jesus: John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. Christ has said that He chose the twelve – they did not chose Him and that one is a devil. 11 of them are “ordained” to bring forth fruit but 1 is “ordained” the fruit of wickedness. Luke 22:21 But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. 22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed! Jesus is to go “as it was determined!!! It was determined that Jesus was to be betrayed – but when was this determined and by whom was it determined? Judas was ‘determined’ by God to both be born and betray Christ When was it decided that Christ would be crucified? 2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, It is plainly revealed and not my imagination that God ordained and “determined” that Christ would be falsely accused, betrayed, misjudged, crucified etc. There can be no detail left to chance in the sacrifice of our Lord – it was predestined by God alone. Again – though men “freely” did their evil deeds including betrayal yet it was predetermined by God – this is revealed: Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Jesus was “delivered” by Judas AND the determined counsel of God. Who “offered” His son to be crucified? God offered Him – not Judas – Judas was only the foreordained vehicle. Could not Christ have been caught and arrested without Judas having to be born. I will let you answer that – many men are arrested daily without be “delivered” by their friends with the “kiss” of a hypocrite thrown in to boot! Matthew 26:15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver. God ordained all that happened to His son including having a ‘Brutus’ of His own. Let’s go back to the question: "Why did God allow Judas to be born if He knew he would suffer in hell forever?" Why does God “allow” (ordain) that any should be born that go to hell. It is His will – it can be no other way. It was the will of God that Judas both be born and eventually end up in hell It can be no other way. Forgive me if all I seem to stress it the side of God most men choose to ignore I wish I did not need to – but few seem up to this ‘unpopular’ task and so I must speak heavily upon what is plainly ignored and denied yet plainly taught by scripture. People who serve a God who try but fails to save men serve an idol. It is not the God I know – it is not the God of scripture. God ordained from all eternity who should be saved and who should not. What is often called “fate” is nothing less the God’s predestined plan for all men. Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? Nothing is left to chance – God is not a gambler!!! Brian