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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Solon who wrote (80165)1/9/2004 1:15:32 PM
From: one_less  Read Replies (4) | Respond to of 82486
 
"I am leaving for holidays in the morning,..."

Which days are so Holy that you need to leave because of them? And how does one leave days?



To: Solon who wrote (80165)1/9/2004 3:33:43 PM
From: average joe  Respond to of 82486
 
Sad? We should all be so sad to live life gloriously and die bravely.

If you're flying out somewhere on holidays remember to show a lot of attitude at the airport security checks, when they question you just mention the "voices".



To: Solon who wrote (80165)1/9/2004 11:51:17 PM
From: average joe  Respond to of 82486
 
Very interesting to read the arguments employed by the church in dismissings d'Arc's claims.

"Another father closed his eyes in a similar case: "I do not wish to see Christ upon earth," he said: "I shall be content upon seeing Him in Heaven."

And, too, Gerson points out, one must distinguish whether the revelation in question is useful for custom, the good of mankind, the honor and development of worship, or whether it relates to vain matters, to useless babbling. As in the history of the Gentiles, man can draw, without vain boasting, glories from his own deeds: as did Tullius and Scipio Africanus.

This weight of humility we find in Zacharias, who stood like one amazed upon seeing the angel, and refused to believe his annunciation. But we must add, as Saint Gregory said in his Dialogues, that "This true humility may not be obstinate, but submissive and in awe." Certainly also, it is not humility but the sign of proud self-esteem, when a person, in alleging his humility, scorns the prelate who is informing himself in such an arduous case. He would not act like that if he were not learned in his own eyes, if he did not rely upon his own prudence, if he were not ready to believe in his own sense and upon his own council rather than upon the judgment of his superior.

The second sign which distinguishes the true spiritual person is discretion: daughter of humility, that is, the readiness to listen to a counselor. For there are people whom it pleases to be governed by their own feelings, and who act according to their own devising. It is the most dangerous Director who leads them, or really it is their own opinions that drive them. They grow dangerously thin by fasting, they prolong their, vigils in exaggerated ways, they trouble themselves with too copious weeping and wear themselves out in hysteria. They do not believe anyone's warnings; they will not be advised to live in a more moderate fashion; they do not bother to listen to people learned in divine law; they scorn all counsel. Such people the author pronounces as being the prey of illusions of the Devil; and one must hold suspect all that they say in unusual revelations.

Gerson cites the instance of the married woman he had just encountered at Arras. This woman sometimes went from two to four days without taking nourishment and naturally she was held by many to be a wonder. The interested theologian had spoken with her, and he was not long in finding out that this abstinence was not sobriety, but simply a case of vain and superb obstinacy; for, after such a fast, exhausted by hunger, the woman ate with an unbelievable voracity. Upon which Gerson had asked her how, in these conditions, without taking anyone's advice, she had followed an abstinence such as the most saintly and the strongest had not observed. She replied by indirection that lacked all humility; whereupon the theologian admonished her, explaining to her that this mania for fasting was nothing but a singular folly, that she was displeasing to her husband, and that the hunger that followed the fasting was the punishment exacted of her.

And Gerson attacked in his time all the excesses in abstinence which led to incurable maladies, such as brain lesions and mental troubles; and he ascribed many visions to these mental maladies; the books on medicine were full of examples of them, he declared. He noted the manias and remarked that he had encountered many people who appeared to have good judgment about most things but who were demented in certain other circumstances: such were they who delved in the magic arts. Gerson's third attribute of the real spiritual coin is patience: a quality which is extremely difficult to evaluate for obstinacy often simulates it."

Of course the story of the sword proves the divinity of her mission here on earth.

"Asked if she had been to Ste. Catherine de Fierbois, she answered yes; and there she heard Masses three times on the same day; and then went to Chinon. She said she sent letters to her king, to the effect that she was sending to find out if she should enter the town where her king was; and that she had journeyed a good hundred and fifty leagues to come to his aid, and that she knew many things to his advantage. And she thought these letters said she would be able to recognize the king among all others. She said she had a sword which she took to the town of Vaucouleurs. She added that when she was at Tours or Chinon she sent for a sword which was in the church of Ste. Catherine de Fierbois, behind the altar; and immediately it was found there all rusted over.

Asked how she knew that this sword was there, she answered that the sword was in the ground, rusted over, and upon it were five crosses; and she knew it was there through her voices, and she had never seen the man who fetched it. She wrote to the clergy of the place asking if it was their pleasure that she should have the sword, and they sent it to her. Nor was it buried deep behind the altar, but she believed she wrote saying it was behind. She added that as soon as the sword was found the priests rubbed it, and the rust fell off at once without effort; a merchant, an armorer of Tours, fetched it. The local priests gave her a scabbard, as did those of Tours also; they made two in all, one of crimson velvet, in French "de velous vermeil", and the other of cloth of gold. She herself had another made of very strong leather. She added that when she was captured she had not this sword with her.

She said also that she carried it continually from the time she obtained it until her departure from St. Denis, after the assault on Paris.

Asked what blessing she said or asked over the sword, she answered that she neither blessed it herself, nor had it blessed; she would not have known how to do it. She loved the sword, she said, since it had been found in the church of St. Catherine, whom she loved.

Asked if she had been to Coulange-la-Vineuse, she answered she did not know.

Asked if she ever put her sword on the altar, and if she did so to bring it better fortune, she answered no, as far as she knew.

Asked if she ever prayed for her sword to have better fortune, she answered: "It is well to know that I could have wished my armor (in French "mon harnois") to have good fortune."

Asked if she had her sword when she was taken, she answered no; but she had one which had been taken from a Burgundian.

Asked where this sword was, and in what town, she answered that she offered a sword and armor at St. Denis, but not this sword. She said she had this sword at Lagny; and from Lagny to Compiègne she had worn the Burgundian's sword, which was a good weapon for fighting, excellent for giving hard clouts and buffets (in French "de bonnes buffes et de bons torchons"). But she said that to say where she had lost it did not concern the case, and she would not answer now. She added that her brothers have her goods, her horses and swords, as far as she knows, and other things worth more than 12,000 crowns.

Asked whether, when she went to Orleans, she had a standard or banner, in French "estandart ou banière" and what color it was, she answered she had a banner, with a field sown with lilies; the world was depicted on it, and two angels, one at each side; it was white, of white linen or boucassin, and on it were written, she thought, these names, Jhesus Maria; and it was fringed with silk.

Asked if these names Jhesus Maria were written above, or below, or at the side, she answered, at the side, she believed.

Asked which she preferred, her standard or her sword, she answered she much preferred her standard to her sword."



To: Solon who wrote (80165)1/11/2004 3:53:21 PM
From: average joe  Respond to of 82486
 
Thanks once again for posting the Fordham link.

"The Usher's writ

...The said Jeanne replied that she would willingly appear before you and answer the truth to the interrogations to which she shall be subjected; that, nevertheless, she requested you to summon in this suit ecclesiastics of the French side equal in number to those of the English party and, further, she humbly begged you, reverend father, to permit her to hear Mass before she appears before you, and to inform you of these requests, which I have done. By these present letters sealed with my seal and signed with my sign manual, I testify to you, reverend father, that all the foregoing has been done by me. Given in the year of Our Lord, 11431, On Tuesday preceding the said Wednesday.

Signed: Jean.

The Petition of the Promoter. Decision forbidding Jeanne to attend divine offices

After the reading of these letters the aforesaid promoter urgently required this woman to be commanded to appear in judgment before us in accordance with the summons, to be examined upon certain articles concerning the faith; which we granted. But since in the meantime this woman had requested to be allowed to hear Mass, we informed the assessors that we had consulted with notable lords and masters on this question, and in view of the crimes of which this woman was defamed, especially the impropriety of the garments to which she clung, it was their opinion that we should properly defer permission for her to hear Mass and attend the divine offices.

Jeanne is led in to judgment

Whilst we were saying these things this woman was brought in by our usher. Since she was appearing in judgment before us we began to explain how this Jeanne had been taken and
apprehended within the boundaries and limits of our diocese of Beauvais; how many of her actions, not in our diocese alone but in many other regions also, had injured the orthodox faith, and how common report of them had spread through all the realms of Christendom; how recently the most serene and Christian prince our lord the king had given and delivered this woman to us to be tried in matters of faith according to law and reason. Therefore, considering the public rumor and common report and also certain information already mentioned, after mature consultation with men learned in canon and civil law, we decreed that the said Jeanne should be summoned and cited by letter to answer the interrogations in matters of faith and other points truthfully according to law and reason, as set forth in the letters shown by the promoter."

fordham.edu