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To: Sidney Reilly who wrote (36255)1/9/2004 11:38:43 PM
From: Jamey  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 39621
 
To the early day Christians Nero was called "The Beast" also, did you ever consider the odds that any man, living or dead, would have a name with a numerical weight, in Hebrew of 666? Probably about 10 billion to one.

I believe that Brian said that he could use Scripture to prove that Revelation was written before 70AD. I think it is quite obvious that it was. One piece of evidence was God telling John to measure the Temple. How to you measure something that has already been destroyed? There are many proofs contained within the Scriptures that is hard to deny unless a man is just unwilling to look at the hard body of evidence.

Did Jesus say or did he not say, when you see this happen(destruction of Herod's Temple) all prophesy will have been fulfilled?

We have been giving you hard facts for months and you have not been able to disprove it, except to refuse to listen. (smile)

Others have only tried to discredit us through personal attacks. That hardly proves anything other than to prove that they are unable to disprove the truth of Scripture.

James



To: Sidney Reilly who wrote (36255)1/10/2004 1:00:53 AM
From: 2MAR$  Respond to of 39621
 
Seems quite apparent, that in everyman (everyone of us) there dwells the beast ...but let's make up wonder stories of avenging and destroying angels...and there be Dragons, and Zephyrs and winged Minotaurs too!!!

... and all this fit for a barbaric halucinating crowd of irrascible sheepherders over 3000 yrs ago , and unflinching proclaim it the one and only truth . Though it was the imperial Persians who's knowledge and wisdom gave you the "angel" , the "messiah" idea , good and evil , and even the idea of "One God of Light & Good " ... and ---->who's technology and skill was used to build the Temple as well.

Seems that everyone else were the sons and daughters of
the beast ... but ofcourse ,not the chosen ones.<g>

How precious is that ?

Authorship and date of Revelations

apocalipsis.org

Old Testement and New Testement Imagery :

OT and NT imagery.
5.1. OT imagery:
Much of the imagery used is derived from the OT, but the theology is NT. John is not slavish to the sources he uses, Austin Farrer talks about the rebirth of images. For example he takes the first plague of Egypt when the Nile turns to blood, even in the wooden buckets and stone jars (Exo 7:16-21). In Revelation this plague is split into two parts (Caird) in the second trumpet a third of the sea is turned to blood and in the third trumpet a third of the drinking water (rivers and springs) is turned bitter so that many people died (Rev 8:8-11).

1) Take for example Rev 12:1 depicting the woman clothed with the sun:

Rev 12:1 A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

At first sight this is meaningless, unless that is we know the OT. Compare this with Joseph's dream:

Gen 37:9 Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. "Listen," he said, "I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me."

Then this difficult description now means the OT church because the twelve stars are the twelve tribes and the following 5 verses now start to mean something, therefore we do not have to resort to pagan mythology to interpret this sign.

2) As another example look at the beast out of the sea, Rev 13:1.

Rev 13:1-2 And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.

This reminds us of the beasts that Daniel saw:

Dan 7:2-7 Daniel said: "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me were the four winds of heaven churning up the great sea. 3 Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea. 4 "The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a man, and the heart of a man was given to it. 5 "And there before me was a second beast, which looked like a bear. It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. It was told, 'Get up and eat your fill of flesh!' 6 "After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard. And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule. 7 "After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast--terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.

Daniel is then given the interpretation in which the four beasts are four kingdoms:

Dan 7:16-18 I approached one of those standing there and asked him the true meaning of all this. "So he told me and gave me the interpretation of these things: 17 'The four great beasts are four kingdoms that will rise from the earth. 18 But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever--yes, for ever and ever.'

The beast of Revelation is a composite of the four beasts of Daniel.

3) The 144,000 from Rev 7:4-8, this is a census. In the OT when a census takes place the subjects of the census need to pay a ransom. Therefore the 144,000 are the redeemed of the Lord.

Exo 30:12 "When you take a census of the Israelites to count them, each one must pay the LORD a ransom for his life at the time he is counted. Then no plague will come on them when you number them.

4) The seven trumpets and seven bowls are both modelled on the ten plagues on the Egyptians.

5.2. The Exodus theme:

The Exodus of the children of Israel out of Egypt, through the desert to the promised land forms a thread that runs through Revelation (Caird).

i. Firstly the saints are persecuted typified by the cry of the martyrs, Rev 6:10, cf. the cry of the Israelites for deliverance from slavery.

ii. The saints are protected from the effects of the plagues by the seal of God which is reminiscent of the blood of the Lamb applied onto the house to protect the Israelites from the destroying angel, Rev 7:4.

iii. There are references to the plagues on the ungodly in both the seven trumpets and seven bowls, cf. the ten plagues on the Egyptians.

iv. The two witnesses have power to turn the waters into blood and strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want, Rev 11:6, just as Moses caused the plagues on the Egyptians.

v. The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days, Rev 12:6, the Israelites fled into the desert where they were safe from Pharaoh, they were cared for by God who gave them manna and their shoes and cloths did not wear out.

vi. The dragon pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child, Rev 12:13, just as Pharaoh pursued the Israelites. Note Pharaoh's hat is in the form of a coiled snake, Pharaoh is sometimes called a dragon.

vii. The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach, Rev 12:14, the serpent representing Pharaoh.

viii. The dragon spewed water like a river to sweep the woman away, but the earth helped the woman by swallowing the river, Rev 12:15-16, this corresponds to the drying up of the Red sea.

ix. Those who had been victorious over the beast, stood by the sea and sang the song of Moses, Rev 15:2-3, this was first sang after the Israelites crosses over the Red sea and the Egyptians were destroyed in the sea.

x. The New Jerusalem describes the promised land, a city which has foundations.

xi. There is a reference to the hidden manna in Rev 2:17.

xii. Egypt is mentioned as a persecutor in Rev 11:8.