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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Jamey who wrote (36290)	1/11/2004 1:27:03 AM
From: Jamey	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

Brian, sometimes I wonder if I am reading the same Bible as some folks. Those who refuse to look at the immanency statements in the Bible act like they are under a spell. Human nature, being what it is, creates many who follow the biggest crowd. "Gosh, If my pastor says its true than he must be right. He has been to seminary school. (grin) Who would have believed that Hitler could mesmerize 70,000,000 Germans into following Mein Kampf! He did though. James

To: Jamey who wrote (36290)	1/11/2004 2:07:16 AM
From: Berry Picker	Respond to of 39621

I believe that "eternal torment" requires "eternal punishment" Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. If it is any comfort to you .. I do not think that any human who understands that God loves His elect so much that He 'gave his only begotten son' to suffer in their stead could possible be the same God who will punish the wicked forever. How can the same God say to 5 wise virgins - come in beloved and yet to another 5 unwise who seek him - depart I never loved you. James - I think the problem with us understanding God's perfect love and perfect hatred and judgement is that we as fallen men are either showing mercy and giving to those who should receive nothing and yet passing by those to whom we should give and show mercy toward. Think about it - even on this thread some men are easily seen as wolves though they claim to be saved while even ourselves as times lash out in anger and say things hateful that we ought not to say. We cannot imagine righteously judging anyone as worthy of eternal torment. In fact one fellow once said to me that if I were asked to sit in the judgement seat of Christ and take over a while I would likely not send a single soul to eternal torment. At the time I could think of a few I would definitely send to hell.. I thought of Hitler and people like him and even a few personal enemies... but really when I think about looking upon someone who knows that they are about to go where they may never return and how that must put anyone in a position of begging for mercy. I am not sure I could actually 'slam the hammer' I am glad that is God Himself who will send anyone to hell - including Hitler. I would not want the job - while some men in this life seem to relish the idea of banning men to hell. I do believe that 'not having eternal life' leave but one other possibilty 'eternal death and torment' Death is not cessation as most men foolishly hope. Jesus said of the death of Lazarus that he "slept" Paul also used the term as they were in "paradise" (not heaven) but also Christ old of the "rich man" in the parable that he went to hades where he suffered "flames" There is no reason to believe that God 'ends' that torment in scripture and we therefore ought not to presume such simply because it is beyond us to 'imagine' God 'allowing' such suffering. God 'allows' suffering daily. God struck Herod dead on the spot and yet let Hitler reign for years. I have been accuse of not knowing God's love or Grace endlessly by those who can see nothing other than God loving all men always. That is not Biblical nor is it even logical. God does not "love everyone the same" Not then not now not ever. So then - when a man can finally reach a level of understanding where he can admit that God both loves some eternally with an "everlasting love" that God can from all eternity also hate some men - in fact it looks to me as most men. Jesus always said of those who obtain mercy that they are the "few" and of those who pass on to punishment that they are the "many" While I also can not 'humanly' wrap my own mind around God righteously suffering men in the lake of fire yet it is also beyond my mind that God could count sinful men such as us as being righteous in His site because He chooses to see us in His Murdered Son's blood. To be honest - we can only know what we know of God by His word although we can see his love toward us in those things that he has decided to reveal himself to us. One of those things is the power for you and I to even talk about these kinds of things without prejudice rationally - knowing that in part we may be wrong and yet on the whole in as much as we conform to what scripture has revealed we can be ABSOLUTELY CORRECT and yet without pride. That in itself is beyond the flesh James and a gift of God. You are right James - it is hard to accept that God will suffer some forever punished never showing mercy - and yet be so merciful to others. That is the big one though is it not? It usually comes down to "Why me"? No matter what side of the fence we land on. Matthew 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Ironic is it not? Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life. If eternal punishment could ever end - then why not eternal life? Brian