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To: Win-Lose-Draw who wrote (39140)	1/19/2004 3:38:37 PM
From: Doren	Respond to of 213182

...will not only always be there, it has no choice but to always be there. an enormous amount crap you are lumping into the "objective design" category is nothing more than your personal collection of subjective cultural biases That's a widely held attitude that is mostly wrong. (Unlese we want to discuss this getting into existential or nihilist philosophy.) I suggest you might want to peruse this book: "Designing Visual Interfaces" by Kevin Mullet ISBN 0-13-303389-9 Really turned my head around about the subjectivity of interface design. There is plenty of quantitative data on human perception. For example: We can differentiate a limited amount of shades. There is a general finite limit here. However we can differentiate an almost unlimited amount of shapes. Therefor shapes are better for some types of widgets. On the other hand there are many types of data that are better organized by shade since shapes generally (generally) have no hierarchy. The same kinds of differences hold true for other differentiators such as spatiality, size, direction etc. Knowing the difference can be crucial to a design. "Visual Explanations : Images and Quantities, Evidence and Narrative" by Edward R. Tufte - How poor graphic design blew up the Space Shuttle. They had all the data they needed to prevent the first Space Shuttle disaster however the people who put the data into graphs used the wrong kind of differentiators. When you see the original graphs against the way they SHOULD have been designed the problems become crystal clear. I have never claimed that a majority of users hate the Doc, or other UI devices in X. I have noticed that a sizable amount do not like many aspects of X. I do claim that Apple has slipped on UI design and it may be a contributory problem, or even a wash when it comes to competing with Microsoft. Apple has to be better and they are in danger of loosing their lead on usability. subjectivity is anti-scientifice [sic] that's a genuinely ridiculous statement and flies in the face of all recorded history: scientific discovery is driven by intensely subjective processes. I don't think I'd want you collecting data for me. Aesthetics has little to do with this conversation.