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Politics : Should God be replaced? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Greg or e who wrote (16232)2/6/2004 7:30:21 PM
From: 2MAR$  Respond to of 28931
 
His death by crucifixion and His resurrection, while there is none for Zeus. I don't have the least bit of problem following the "evidence".

It may have more to do with the nature of suffering being "universal" (see the Buddha) and the qualities of love and compassion that are revealed by the supreme example of sacrifice for the fulfillment of the teaching , of one absorbed in the experience and vision of a greater good and moral way of life . He bore his cross to the end ...yet so instructed all to do after him. But must they do it in Churches only? Jesus had no churches if you remember , but did find peace in gardens and deserts alone, or out on a hillside standing preaching to the "multitudes", or on a city street by the temple challenging the dictums and dogma of the day.

For God so loved the world ...he gave his begotten Sons and Daughters , i think the scripture should read . What is the nature of our suffering more keenly focussed on , than just calling it Sin ? Wasn't there more offered in the way of directions as well by parable and teaching , for the end of suffering ? Man (and woman) have always been afflicted by the fear of old age , infirmity , death and final ending down to our very souls. Some societies are more stoic about this than others ...some religions are more concerned about this than others as well .

The early Christians were completely obsessed for instance , that their own bodies were "entombed" whole and preserved for the "resurrection" to come , this we know by the elaborate catacombs they constructed and rites peformed there , with Dolphins sometimes depicted on the walls who were thought by the Romans and Greeks to carry souls over to the hither shores to green pastures of heaven. To be creamated would be unthinkable and horrifying, just as the fear of being buried alive was an obsessed fear by many for centuries.

But "On Love"....why is it that love cannot be expressed thru pursuit of knowledge , the brotherhood of science does produce great fraternity , egality, and as much reflective affections as the brotherhood of the priesthood and clerics.
Wasn't the message always one of love and respect of creation ? Why not scientist , professors as well as priests that dmonstrate this too?
And then why shut of certain venues on a basis of semantics and dogma and separations only ?

For the mystic hermit living austerly in a cave meditating on God , or a Scientist working in tandem with others for many years for that one glinting breakthru of knowledge ...or for the baptist preterist sitting loving Jesus up in Canada Greg .... cannot the "love" be found in all these ? The fraternity , Egality , and Love & Liberty ?

It was about Love wasnt it in the end ? I can see it all around within and without the holy places , which do not serve any longer as the basis by which man comes closer to God ...that is the MYTH! Just as well it could be in an astronomical observatory , than a trip to the Holy Land .

But 40 days and 40 nights alone in any desert , does tend to make one come to some spiritual awakenings , or just going on a walk-about, i believe Jesus the rabbai did walk some 50miles over to one city and back in one instance , what was the reason ? (also see Forest Gump, Mahatma Ghandi , or the Australian Aborigines)

;)



To: Greg or e who wrote (16232)2/8/2004 1:34:05 PM
From: Solon  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 28931
 
"Diaz is engaging in a logical fallacy called poisoning the well. That's a fact. Get over it."

You have not shown that. So YOU get over it. It is your belief and your hang-up.

"I am a somebody and I have accused science of desperation, so you are wrong aren't you?"

Now you are carping. I don't think that your particular "accusations" belie the meaning of my statement.

"People like yourself are so desperate to deny the moral claims that God has on their behavior that they have a vested interest in the outcome of "scientific inquiries"."

Another good example of your "ad hominem" method of "argument". Full of sound and fury and signifying nothing...(with apologies)

"In fact he painted one side as "motivated" and his side of being "free" to follow the evidence. If it's fair to bring up motives on one side then it's also fair to point them out for the other side as well."

Which is essentially correct. But where a scientist does have an overt bias stemming from some emotional disturbance, it should indeed be acknowledged.

""Science" may claim that it is a neutral system of inquiry but science is done by humans who have motives. Failing to recognize this is not only arrogant, it is stupid."

The "motive" for becoming a scientist is normally a desire to seek the objective truth of things. Motives are not bad or questionable in and of themselves. You may re-consider the rest of your sentence without my assistance.

"Why not just be honest about it?"

More ad hominem. Marvellous argument.

"There is plenty of historical evidence for actual existence of Jesus, His death by crucifixion and His resurrection, while there is none for Zeus."

That is simply not a fact. There were many named "Jesus" (it was a common name). There may even have been a loose connection to a particular man by those whom brought together some of the pagan myths alongside of Judaism into Christianity. But there is not one single solitary shred of historical evidence for the Jesus referred to in the myth stories--no more than there is for Apollo or Zeus. Indeed, the fabled character of the bible (like all bibles), and the historical evidence for a mythological and transcultural/historical sharing of folklore and myth, is additional evidence as to the nature of these stories. All cultures have such stories and many have far larger compendiums of dogma than do the rather fragmented and sparse stories of the Christian movement. You might wish to consider these mythologies thoughtfully and sincerely in the company and context of other mythologies. It might help you to take a more objective and balanced view of the matter...

maryforrest.com



To: Greg or e who wrote (16232)2/8/2004 1:39:20 PM
From: Solon  Respond to of 28931
 
"The Persians (An Indo-European Nation)

There were Aryans in the Indus Valley. Some went to India, some to Persia. Persians call themselves Aryans. They were called "Persian" by the Greeks. Their religion changed circa 600 B.C. Before this, the gods were Aryan, i.e., Indo-European. Persia was very insular. They moved in and took the world away from Babylon in 500 B.C. On the Persian plateau, there were many petty kingdoms which combined into an empire c. 600 B.C. In about 100 years, they took over the world.

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The Creation Story

In the beginning, Earth was a flat plain under a solid dome with 178 stars and a sun and moon fixed to the dome. The land was surrounded by the cosmic ocean. Outside the dome were two vague amorphous deities: the "Benevolent One" Ahura Mazda, and the "Malevolent One" Angra Mainyu, both of whom were male.

One day, Angra Mainyu decided to mess things up. He broke through the dome, went down into the ocean, and came back up through the earth, forming a volcanic mountain. He continued to do this until the earth was covered with mountains and valleys. The jarring vibration broke all the stars and the sun and moon loose and they began to slide westward. At the horizon, they broke out of the dome, went around to the other side and came back in. Each made a separate hole, leaving 180 holes on each side (as in angular degrees).

Ahura Mazda decides to be creative because things are now in motion. This is the beginning of life. He plants two trees: the Tree of Seeds (the source of all the other trees in the universe) and the Tree of White Haoma. Haoma is a sacred drink (like the Indian "Soma") which gave the gods immortality and all manner of inspiration. It is considered either very alcoholic or very narcotic. No one is sure. It is pressed from a plant. It is a milky white fluid that turns yellow while fermenting. Another name for it is Amrita, which is the same as Ambrosia, the food of the Greek gods. It is a vital drink for the gods. Angra Mainyu is against the Haoma. He sends a great lizard of the ocean to chew on the roots of the Tree of White Haoma. Ahura Mazda sends 13 fish to swin in around the roots and keep the lizard at bay. Eventually the lizard will prevail, but the fish help to delay this. The Tree of Seeds brings forth all other trees. All life begins.

Haoma is also personified as a god (very vague) but only to justify its worship.

Vayu, the God of the Wind. "He Who Goes Forward and He Who Goes Backward." A very powerful early god. He is neutral until Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu give sacrifices to him. Then Vayu allies himself with Ahura Mazda.

Anahita, the Great Goddess of Human Fertility. The source of the cosmic ocean. She purifies the male seed and the mother's womb and the mother's milk. A very popular goddess worshipped by temple prostitution. (As a conscription, all young women had to serve as temple prostitutes. But they were buried alive if they were caught having sex outside the temple before marriage.)

Tishtrya, the God of Plant and Animal Fertility. Also a storm god. He brings the rain. In oppostion to Tishtrya is Apaosha, the God of Draught. The first time they fought, Tishtrya was a great white stallion with gold trappings and Apaosha was a black stallion with all black trappings. They fought very hard and Apaosha was winning. Tishtrya complained to Ahura Mazda that the reason he was losing was that mankind was not giving him the proper rituals. So Ahura Mazda himself performed a ritual giving Tishtrya the strength to win. And humanity learned by this example never to forget to perform the rituals to Tishtrya. A complement to Tishtrya is a figure called Rapithwin, the Lord of the Noonday Heat. This is the heat that is necessary for the plants to grow. In the winter, Rapithwin retreats to the Underworld and keeps the subterranean waters warm so the roots of the plants won't freeze.

Atar. People will say the Persians were fire worshippers. They did have fire temples devoted to a sacred flame. But they were not worshipping fire itself. Ahura Mazda has by this time become the sun god. The Persians really idolize him. He is most powerful. They thought the sun was made of fire, and that fire on Earth was sent from the sun, arriving via lightning bolts. That means that fire on earth is simply an extension of Ahura Mazda himself. Thus the use of fire in their worship rituals. But they called earthbound fire Atar, a deity, like a surrogat Ahura Mazda. To make their sacred flame, they would gather a huge stack of cut wood to be blessed by a priest outside the temple. They would bring some wood in and ignite it. To make it sacred, they poured clarified goat butter on it. Then it would be sacred and eternal. If a priest let it go out, he would be buried alive. Their attitude toward fire was different. Our view is that fire is a purifying agent. But if something fell into the flame, the Persians considered the flame to be contaminated and it had to be extinguished.

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Zarathustra

628 B.C. Zarathustra is born. 551 B.C. He dies.

He was an enormounsly important prophet. The Persians were astrologers. The Greeks called him Zoroaster (Zodiac Star). But he was not an astrologer. Before he was born, his birth was announced to his mother. He was born with a Favr (an aura -- believed to be a special link with the gods). Zarathustra then smiled, indicating that even at birth, he was aware. In his early teens, he withdrew from the world and disappeared. He was working on his version of true religion. At age 30, he reappeared. Angra Mainyu tried to tempt him and frighten him out of teaching his new religion. Zarathustra resisted and began teaching. (Note the parallels in this story to the stories of Christ and Buddha.) For ten years, no one would listen to Zarathustra. Finally he converted a king, and the kingdom followed. But the king's counselors were jealous and slandered Zarathustra, landing him in prison. He talked a lot with Ahura Mazda and wrote what became the core of the Persian canon the Avesta. He was later released and became a leader. At 77, he was worshiping in a fire temple when robbers broke in and he was killed.

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The Universe as Zarathustra Saw It

Ahura Mazda is most powerful. He created Spenta Mainyu and Angra Mainyu. They have free choice of the principles they embrace. Spenta Mainyu chose Asha (good) and Angra Mainyu chose Druj (evil), thus the advent of dualism. We are all products of dualism. This ideology has prevaded the entire Western World. There are also Righteousness and Wickedness, Order and Chaos, Truth and The Lie (Persians are in the Truth category -- everyone else is part of The Lie). Each side has an army. Spenta Mainyu has the Ahuras. Angra Mainyu has the Daevas. Ahura Mazda is on the side of Spenta Mainyu. They eventually merge into a single god Ormazd. Angra Mainyu becomes Ahriman.

There are also a number of "archangels" in several categories:

(1) Amesha Spenta, "The Blessed Beloved Ones." There are six of them. Each has two characteristics: something in nature and some human virtue.

(2) Yazata. There are 40 of them. They are all standard gods. The most famous is Mithras whose cult spread throughout the world. He was a god of oaths and vows and contracts, all of which were sealed by swearing to Mithras. He is shown grabbing a bull's head and thrusting a sword into it. His name comes to mean "contract" as a common noun.

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The After Life

When a man dies, the spirit waits for three days on Earth. On each of the three nights, it contemplates: (1) the things he said, (2) the things he thought, and (3) the things he did. The spirit then travels to Chinvat, "The Bridge of the Requiter" ("requite" = "to give back in kind") where one is going to get one's comeuppances. If you were middle of the road, you would go to Hamstagen, total oblivion. If you were really good, you would be met by a beautiful young girl who would take you by the hand and lead you across the Chinvat. The young woman represents the conscience, which is hardly used in the life of one who is good. That is why she is young. If you have been evil, you are met by a disgustingly ugly old hag who signals to a couple of ogres who take clubs and drive you onto the bridge, which is now like a sword blade turned on edge. You cut yourself up and fall right off into a vat of molten metal. You end up in the House of the Lie, a place of eternal torment, depending on what you did. If you were good, you go to the House of Song, an eternal paradise. Followers of Zarathustra thought this was too harsh. Even when he was an old man, they were beginning to change this: On a day called Frashkart, "The Rehabilitation of the Universe," a person called Saoshyant, "He Who Saves," will save everyone. They hoped it would be Zarathustra, but after he died, it developed so that it would just be a descendant of Zarathustra and they would know by the stars. Frashkart meant that the Saoshyant would reunite the souls to the bodies. They would all pass through the molten metal, only it would not hurt and they would be cleansed to go on to the House of Song. Ahriman and his followers would either be annihilated or sent to the House of the Lie.
"

maryforrest.com