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Politics : Should God be replaced? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Greg or e who wrote (16264)2/12/2004 11:55:08 AM
From: Greg or e  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 28931
 
Did The Mithraic Mysteries Influence Christianity? continued Pt2

Priming the Pump with Parallels?
We are now ready to embark upon the practical part of our essay in which we consider in turn each of the claims made by Acharya S of alleged "parallels" between Mithraism and Christianity.

Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds.
This claim, which I have seen repeated in part by the Secular Web's James Still, is a mix of truth and obfuscations. Let's begin with the December 25th part by noting Glenn Miller's reply, which is more than sufficient: "...the Dec 25 issue is of no relevance to us--nowhere does the NT associate this date with Jesus' birth at all." This is something the later church did, wherever they got the idea from -- not the apostolic church, and if there was any borrowing at all, everyone did it, for Dec. 25th was "universally distinguished by sacred festivities" [Cum.MM, 196] being that it was (at the time) the winter solstice.

Next, the cave part. First of all, Mithra was not born of a virgin in a cave; he was born out of solid rock, which presumably left a cave behind -- and I suppose technically the rock he was born out of could have been classified as a virgin! Here is how one Mithraic scholar describes the scene on Mithraic depictions: Mithra "wearing his Phrygian cap, issues forth from the rocky mass. As yet only his bare torso is visible. In each hand he raises aloft a lighted torch and, as an unusual detail, red flames shoot out all around him from the petra genetrix." [MS.173] Mithra was born a grown-up, but you won't hear the copycatters mention this! (The rock-birth scene itself was a likely carryover from Perseus, who experienced a similar birth in an underground cavern; Ulan.OMM, 36.)

That leaves the shepherds, and this is one that is entirely true; although the shepherds did more than "attend" (unlike Luke's shepherds, they were witnesses to the birth; there was no angelic mediator), they also helped Mithra out of the rock, and offered him the first-fruits of their flock -- quite a feat for these guys in any event, considering that Mithra's birth took place at a time when (oops!) men had supposedly not been created on earth yet. [Cum.MM, 132] But the clincher here is that this scene, like nearly all Roman Mithraic evidence, dates at least a century after the time of the New Testament. It is too late to say that any "borrowing" was done by the Christian church -- if there was any, it was the other way around; but there probably was not. (It is fair to note also that the Iranian Mithra didn't have a "born out of rock" story...his conception was attributed, variously, to an incestuous relationship between Ahura-Mazda and his mother, or to the plain doings of an ordinary mortal woman...but there is no virgin conception/birth story to speak of. [Cum.MM, 16] Acharya says that the Indian Mitra, "was born of a female, Aditi, the 'mother of the gods,' the inviolable or virgin dawn; this is simply yet another case of her applying terminology [a "dawn" as "virgin" -- so when does the dawn start "having sex" and how?] illicitly. So likewise this word game: "It could be suggested that Mithra was born of 'Prima Materia,' or 'Primordial Matter,' which could also be considered 'First Mother,' 'Virgin Matter,' 'Virgin Mother,' etc..." -- it can be "considered" no such thing except by vivid imagination; merely playing on the psycho-linguistic similarity of sound in the English words "matter" and "mother" and trying to equare "first" with "virgin" isn't going to do the job. Research Assistant Punkish adds: ADITI (according to an astrological website) means Free unbound. Boundless heaven as compared with the finite earth. A Vedic goddess representing the primeval generator of all that emanated. The eternal space of boundless whole, the unfathomable depth signifying the veil over the unknown. (Note, not matter/mother but generator of matter!) The Rig Veda describes it as the father and mother of all gods; it is named Devamatri, mother of all gods, or Swabhavat, that which exists by itself. She is frequently implored for blessing children and cattle, for protection and forgiveness. In the Yajur Veda, Aditi is addressed as the support of the sky, the sustainer of the earth, the sovereign of this world, and the wife of Vishnu. The Vishnu Purana describes Aditi, the daughter of Daksha and the wife of Kashyapa, to be the mother of 8 Adityas (q.v.) (wife of Vishnu or Kashyapa? bit unlikely to be virginal then!!!) Then we have this website Dialogueonline.net - Magazine (comparative research on major religions) where we find: "According to the Rigveda (10/72/2) Brahmanaspati, like a craftsman, created the gods, and the gods in turn created ‘Sat’ from ‘Asat’. The Rigveda (10/72/4-5) further says, “Daksha was born of Aditi and Aditi was born of Daksha, the gods were born of Aditi and Aditi gave birth to eight sons”. This mantra suggests mainly two things - first, Aditi and Daksha took birth of each other, which proposition is never possible; second, the Creator of this universe was Aditi because she gave birth to the gods. But it ridicules more brazenly when refuting such points Rigveda (8/90/15) says: “Aditi was daughter of Adityas”. In this connection, Rigveda produces more than one controversy as Rigveda tots up that Aditi was mother of Vishnu and so Rigveda (4/55/3 8/27/5) clarifies, “Aditi mothered Vishnu”. But repudiating the same verse Vajasaney Samhita (20/60) and Taitirya Samhita (7/5/14) consolidates that Aditi was wife of Vishnu. The goddess, who herself is found in various controversies is considered creator of this universe. Thus, these mantras fail to shed any meaningful light on the basic issue of the birth, motherhood and even creation of the universe by Aditi.", Creator And Creation In Hindu Perspective)

Acharya now adds in her work iconographic evidence allegedly showing "the babe Mithra seated in the lap of his virgin mother, with the gift-bearing Magi genuflecting in front of them." One is constrained to ask how an icon reflects that Mithra's mother was a virgin, since it is obviously not stated. One also wants to know if any of this evidence is pre-Christian (it is not). Quoting others who merely say it is indicating a virgin birth, yet offer no more evidence, is not an argument. Finally, we are told of the "largest near-eastern Mithraeum [which] was built in western Persia at Kangavar, dedicated to 'Anahita, the Immaculate Virgin Mother of the Lord Mithras'." This is a very curious claim which is repeated around the Internet, but no source is given for it, and Acharya attributes it to a "writer" with no name or source. I believe, however, that I have found the terminal source, and it is a paper written in 1993 by a then-high school student, David Fingrut, who made this claim without any documentation whatsoever himself. His paper is now posted on the Net as a text file. That said, it is inaccurate to start with, since the building at Kanagvar is not a Mithraeum at all, but a temple to Anahita (dated 200 BC), and although I have found one source of untested value that affirms that Anahita was depicted as a virgin (in spite of being a fertility goddess!), she is regarded not at Mithra's mother, but as his consort (though it does offer other contradictory info) -- and it knows nothing of such an inscription as described; and the mere existence of the goddess Anahita before the Roman era proves nothing. Acharya appears to be throwing ringers again.

He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
Aside from the fact that this is what we would expect from any major leadership figure, especially in a religious context ("He was a great god -- he taught us nothing!"), I have to say that this looks to be the first of several outright "ringers" in the set. I have found nowhere any indication that Mithra was a teacher, travelling or otherwise. (He probably could be called a "master," but what leading figure would not be? And a master in what sense? This is rather a vague parallel to draw!) At any rate, since there is no evidence for this one in any of the Mithraic literature, we issue our first challenge to the pagan-copycat theorists, especially Acharya S: How is it shown that Mithra was a "great traveling teacher"? What did he teach, and where, and to whom? How was he a "master" and why is this a similarity to Jesus?

He had 12 companions or disicples.
I have seen this claim repeated a number of times, almost always (see below) without any documentation. (One of our readers wrote to Acharya asking for specific evidence of this one...she did not reply, although she had readily replied to a prior message.) The Iranian Mithras, as we have seen, did have a single companion (Varuna), and the Roman Mithra had two helper/companions, tiny torch-bearing likenesses of himself, called Cautes and Cautopatres, that were perhaps meant to represent the sunrise and sunset (whereas "Big Daddy" Mithra was supposed to be noon), spring and autumn, the stars Albedaran and Antares [Beck.PO, 26] or life and death. (Freke and Gandy absurdly attempt to link these twins to the two theives crucified with Jesus! - Frek.JM, 51 - because one went to heaven with Jesus [torch up] and one went to hell [torch down]! Why not link instead to Laurel and Hardy, because one was repentant [torch down] and the other was a bully [torch up]!) Mithra also had a number of animal companions: a snake, a dog, a lion, a scorpion -- but not 12 of them.

Now here's an irony. My one idea as to where they got this one was a picture of the bull-slaying scene carved in stone, found in Ulansey's book, that depicts the scene framed by 2 vertical rows with 6 pictures of what seem to be human figures or faces on each side. It occurred to me that some non-Mithraist perhaps saw this picture and said, "Ah ha, those 12 people must be companions or disciples! Just like Jesus!" Days later I received Freke and Gandy's book, and sure enough -- that's how they make the connection. Indeed, they go as far as saying that during the Mirthaic initiation ceremony, Mithraic disciples dressed up as the signs of the zodiac and formed a circle around the initiate. [Frek.JM, 42] Where they (or rather, their source) get this information about the methods of Mithraic initiation, one can only guess: No Mithraic scholar seems aware of it, and their source, Godwin, is a specialist in "Western esoteric teaching" -- not a Mithraist, and it shows, because although writing in 1981, well after the first Mithraic congress, Godwin was still following Cumont's line that Iranian and Roman Mithraism were the same, and thus ended up offering interpretations of the bull-slaying scene that bear no resemblance to what Mithraic scholars today see in it at all. (To be fair, though, Freke and Gandy do not give the page number where Godwin supposedly says this -- and his material on Mithraism says nothing about any initiation ceremony.) However, aside from the fact that this carving is (yet again!) significantly post-Christian (so that any borrowing would have had to be the other way), these figures have been identified by modern Mithraic scholars as representing zodiacal symbols. Indeed, the top two faces are supposed to be the sun and the moon!

Acharya in her latest now acknowledges that Mithra's dozen are the zodiac, but goes on the defense by saying, "the motif of the 12 disciples or followers in a 'last supper' is recurrent in the Pagan world, including within Mithraism" -- with the Mithraic supper compared to the Last Supper (see below). She also adds: "The Spartan King Kleomenes had held a similar last supper with twelve followers four hundreds years before Jesus. This last assertion is made by Plutarch in Parallel Lives, 'Agis and Kleomenes' 37:2-3." This is only partly true -- I was alerted to this passage by a helpful reader: "For [Cleomenes] sacrificed, and gave them large portions, and, with a garland upon his head, feasted and made merry with his friends. It is said that he began the action sooner than he designed, having understood that a servant who was privy to the plot had gone out to visit a mistress that he loved. This made him afraid of a discovery; and therefore, as soon as it was full noon, and all the keepers sleeping off their wine, he put on his coat, and opening his seam to bare his right shoulder, with his drawn sword in his hand, he issued forth, together with his friends provided in the same manner, making thirteen in all." It's a "last supper," but it isn't invested with any significance in itself (least of all, atoning significance! -- and these guys clearly had to have a "last meal" at some point!), and the twelve companions don't have any real role beyond this pericope. We'd put this own down as natural coincidence (as there are people with five, 10, or other numbers of companions as well.)

Mithra's followers were promised immortality.
On this one, Acharya is making no more than a guess, although probably a good one: As one Mithraic scholar put it, Mithraism "surely offered its initiates deliverance from some awful fate to which all other men were doomed, and a privileged passage to some ultimate state of well-being." [MS.470] Why is this a good guess? Not because Mithraism borrowed from Christianity, or Christianity borrowed from Mithraism, or anyone borrowed from anyone, but because if you don't promise your adherents something that secures their eternity, you may as well give up running a religion and go and sell timeshares in Alaska! In practical terms, however, the only hard evidence of a "salvational" ideology is a piece of graffitti found in the Santa Prisca Mithraeum (a Mithraist "church" building, if you will), dated no earlier than 200 AD, that reads, "And us, too, you saved by spilling the eternal blood." [Spie.MO, 45; Gor.IV, 114n; Verm.MSG, 172] Note that this refers to Mithra spilling the blood of the bull -- not his own -- and that (according to the modern Mithraic "astrological" interpretation) this does not mean "salvation" in a Christian sense (involving freedom from sin) but an ascent through levels of initiation into immortality.

He performed miracles.
Mithra did perform a number of actions rather typical for any deity worldwide, true or false, and in both his Iranian and Roman incarnations. But this is another one of those things where we just say, "What's the big deal?" We agree with Miller:

It must be remembered that SOME general similarities MUST apply to any religious leader. They must generally be good leaders, do noteworthy feats of goodness and/or supernatural power, establish teachings and traditions, create community rituals, and overcome some forms of evil. These are common elements of the religious life--NOT objects that require some theory of dependence...The common aspect of homo religiosus is an adequate and more plausible explanation than dependence.
Of course, our pagan-copycat theorists are welcome to try and draw more exact parallels, but as yet I have seen no cited example where Mithra turned water into wine or calmed a storm.

As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
This description is rather spun out into a sound-alike of Christian belief, but behind the vagueness lies a different story. Mithra did not "sacrifice himself" in the sense that he died; he was not the "great bull of the Sun", but rather, he killed the bull (attempts to somehow identify Mithra with the very bull he slayed, although popular with outdated non-Mithraists like Loisy and Bunsen, were rejected by Vermaseren, who said that "neither the temples nor the inscriptions give any definite evidence to support this view and only future finds can confirm it" [Verm.MSG, 103]; it was not for the sake of "world peace" (except, perhaps, in the sense that Cumont interpreted the bull-slaying as a creation myth [Cum.MM, 193], in which he was entirely wrong). Mithra could only be said to have "sacrificed himself" in the sense that he went out and took a risk to do a heroic deed; the rest finds no justification at all in modern Mithraic studies literature -- much less does it entail a parallel to Christ, who sacrificed himself for atonement from personal sin (not "world peace").

Punkish has added this: ...[T]he footnote [in Christ Conspiracy] reads O'Hara, which in the bibliography is Gwydion O'Hara, Sun Lore. Now if you look this guy up on Amazon.com you find his book reviews are not very positive, in fact he's the sort of person, like Barbara Walker, who makes things up. What kind of authority is he? He isn't: he's a writer on pagan practices and he was once a high priest of the Wiccan Church of Canada at a time when it was an ideal rather than a reality (!)...sounds like another nut. What's Acharya doing using this guy instead of a Mithraic scholar?

He was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again.
His resurrection was celebrated every year.
I have to classify these two as "ringers" -- I see no references anywhere in the Mithraic studies literature to Mithra being buried, or even dying, for that matter [Gordon says directly, that there is "no death of Mithras" -- Gor.IV, 96] and so of course no rising again and no "resurrection" (in a Jewish sense?!) to celebrate. Freke and Gandy [Frek.JM, 56] claim that the Mithraic initiates "enacted a similar resurrection scene", but their only reference is to a comment by Tertullian, significantly after New Testament times! Tekton Research Assistant Punkish adds: The footnote is for Tertullian's Prescription Against Heretics, chapter 40 which says, "if my memory still serves me, Mithra there, (in the kingdom of Satan, ) sets his marks on the foreheads of his soldiers; celebrates also the oblation of bread, and introduces an image of a resurrection, and before a sword wreathes a crown" ...so their argument relies on Tertullian's memory, and it isn't the initiates but Mithra who does the celebrating and introduces an *image* of a resurrection?! How is that at all related to initiates acting out a scene? Wynne-Tyson [Wyn.MFC, 24; cf. Ver.MSG, 38] also refers to a church writer of the fourth century, Firmicus, who says that the Mithraists mourn the image of a dead Mithras -- still way too late, guys! -- but after reading the work of Firmicus, I find no such reference at all!) Acharya adds the assertion of Dupuis that Mithras was killed by crucifixion, but from the description, either Dupuis or Acharya are mixing up Mithra with Attis!

He was called "the Good Shepherd" and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.
Only the third aspect has any truth to it as far as I can find from Mithraic studies sources: The lion was regarded in Roman Mithraism as Mithra's "totem" animal, just as Athena's animal was the owl and Artemis' animal was the deer [Biv.PM, 32]. Since Mithra was a sun-god, there was also an association with Leo, which was the House of the Sun in Babylonian astrology. But aside from this evidence all being post-Christian, one may ask what the big deal is. Do we expect the Christians or the Mithraists to say, "Darn, we can't use the lion, it's already taken by the other guys?" Should Exxon give up their tiger because of Frosted Flakes? But if you really want to get techincal, Jesus owned the rights to the lion symbol as a member of the tribe of Judah long before Mithras even appeared in his Iranian incarnation (Gen. 49:9).

There are other associations as well: In the Roman material, one of Mithra's companions in the bull-slaying scene is a lion; the lion is sometimes Mithra's hunting and feasting companion; Mithra is sometimes associated with a lion-headed being who is sometimes identified as the evil Zoroatrsian god Ahriman [MS.277]; one of the seven stages of initiation in Mithraism is the lion stage. But Mithra is only called a lion in one Mithraic tale (which is part of Armenian folklore -- where did the writers of the NT pick that up?) because as a child he killed a lion and split it in two. [MS.356, 442]

He was considered the "Way, the Truth and the Light," and the "Logos," "Redeemer," "Savior" and "Messiah." Acharya now adds in her latest work the titles creator of the world, God of gods, the mediator, mighty ruler, king of gods, lord of heaven and earth, Sun of Righteousness.
We have several titles here, and yea, though I searched through the works of Mithraic scholars, I found none of these applied to Mithra, other than the role of mediator (not, though, in the sense of a mediator between God and man because of sin, but as a mediator between Zoroaster's good and evil gods; we have seen the "sun" identification, but never that title) -- not even the new ones were ever listed by the Mithraic scholars. There is a reference to a "Logos" that was taught to the Mithraic initiates [MS.206](in the Roman evidence, which is again, significantly after the establishment of Christianity), but let it be remembered that "logos" means "word" and goes back earlier in Judaism to Philo -- Christians borrowed the idea from Philo, perhaps, or from the general background of the word, but not from Mithraism.

His sacred day was Sunday, the "Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.

Mithra had his principal festival of what was later to become Easter.
We'll consider these two together. The Iranian Mithra had a few special celebrations: a festival on October 8; another on September 12-16, and a "cattle-pairing" festival on October 12-16 [MS.59]. But as for an Easter festival, I have seen only that there was a festival at the spring equinox -- and it was one of just four, one for each season.

In terms of Sunday being a sacred day, this is correct [Cum.MM, 190-1], but it only appears in Roman Mithraism, and Acharya here is apparently assuming, like Cumont, that what held true for Roman Mithraism also held true for the Iranian version -- but there is no evidence for this. If any borrowing occurred (it probably didn't), it was the other way around.

His religion had a eucharist or "Lord's Supper," at which Mithra said, "He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved."
This saying is appealed to also by Freke and Gandy [Frek.JM, 49], and it took me some digging to discover it's actual origin. Godwin says that the reference is from a "Persian Mithraic text," but does not give the dating of this text, nor say where it was found, nor offer any documentation; that I found finally in Vermaseren [Verm.MSG, 103] -- the source of this saying is a medieval text; and the speaker is not Mithras, but Zarathustra! Although Vermaseren suggested that this might be the formula that Justin referred to (but did not describe at all) as being part of the Mithraic "Eucharist," there is no evidence for the saying prior to this medieval text. (Freke and Gandy, and now Acharya, try to give the rite some ancestry by claiming that it derives from an Iranian Mithraic ceremony using a psychadelic plant called Haoma, but they are clearly grasping at straws and adding speculations of meaning in order to make this rite seem similar to the Eucharist.) This piece of "evidence" is far, far too late to be useful -- except as possible proof that Mithraism borrowed from Christianity! (Christianity of course was in Persia far earlier than this medieval text; see Martin Palmer's Jesus Sutras for details.)

The closest thing that Mithraism had to a "Last Supper" was the taking of staples (bread, water, wine and meat) by the Mithraic initiates, which was perhaps a celebreation of the meal that Mithra had with the sun deity after slaying the bull. However, the meal of the initiates is usually seen as no more than a general fellowship meal of the sort that was practiced by groups all over the Roman world -- from religious groups to funereal societies. [MS.348]

"His annual sacrifice is the passover of the Magi, a symbolical atonement or pledge of moral and physical regeneration."
This is rather a confused statement, for it compounds an apparent falsity (I have found no indication that Mithra's "sacrifice" was annual, rather than a once-in-the-past event); it uses terms from Judeo-Christian belief ("passover", "atonement") to describe a rite from Mithraism, without showing any similarities at all. I see this as little more than a case of illicitly applying terminology, and until more detail is provided, it can be regarded as little else.

Shmuel Golding is quoted as saying that 1 Cor. 10:4 is "identical words to those found in the Mithraic scriptures, except that the name Mithra is used instead of Christ." In her latest work Acharya attributes this comment also to Weigall.
In response to this, I need to say that if Golding has or Weigall had some Mithraic scriptures in their possession, they need to turn them over to Mithraic scholarly community at once, because they will want to know about them. Ulansey [Ulan.OMM, 3] tells us that "the teachings of the (Mithraic) cult were, as far as we know, never written down" and we "have been left with practically no literary evidence relating to the cult which would help (us) reconstruct its esoteric doctrines." So where is Golding/Weigall getting this from?

The Catholic Encyclopedia is quoted as saying that Mithraic services were conduced by "fathers" and that the "chief of the fathers, a sort of pope, who always lived at Rome, was called 'Pater Patratus.'"
Freke and Gandy add their own idea: Like Christians, Mithraic initiates called each other "brother" [Frek.JM, 67]. Both claims are true, but quite simply, so what? The use of familial terms within religious societies is a universal, and that's no surprise, because familial terms are the most useful for expressing endearment or commitment. Ineed, "kinship terminology" was used in Greco-Roman antiquity for fellows of the same religion or race, as well as of friends, allies, and even prospective guests [Keener commentary on Matthew, 370n]. (I have seen no evidence that the Pater Patratus "always lived" at Rome, but even if he did, this would be of no moment: As the leading city of the Empire, where else would this person most likely have headquarters? This means no more than mainline churches all having headquarters in New York, or all foreign countries having embassies in Washington. Beyond that, we hardly need to defend "borrowing" when what is at stake is a church organizational structure that came into being many years after apostolic times.)

Here are some additional notes from Punkish about the points in Jesus Myseteries:
Having accomplished his mission on Earth, Mithras was said to have ascended to heaven in a sun-chariot - and the footnote refers you to Cumont, p138. Cumont is actually referring to Mithra watching over the first couple (a sort of Adam and Eve) and providing divine protection to humanity during a Noahlike flood! Not related to Jesus' mission, though omission of these details implies such, especially during a resurrection discussion.

As for Mithras ascending to heaven, this is a misreading of the text. It is not Mithra, but the gods (e.g. Helios) with him who after looking after the humans, ascend, then Mithras crosses the Ocean in his chariot. The Ocean tries to engulf him and fails, and finally he joins the immortals' habitation. The term "ascension" is not applied to Mithras by Cumont.

JM's claims to Christian eschatology parallels: they list, Mithras as right hand authority, God of Light, ruler of the world, waiting for End of Time, return to earth, awake dead & pass judgment. Footnote 257 p271 says "Cumont collates a mass of Mithraic eschatological doctrines identical to Christianity." This is a terrible misreading of Cumont pp145-146...I can't find anything about "ruler of the world", protector of humanity yes, ruler no. While Mithras is said to redescend together with a bull and separates the good from the bad (as "god of truth", not God of Light - the nearest we get is his title as the celestial father who receives the faithful in a resplendant mansion!), he sacrifices the bull before the assembled humanity which are raised from the dead yes, but the doctrine is an add-on to the immortal soul view - which sounds more like transmigration, and the resurrection is for the purpose of material enjoyment. The bull's fat and consecrated wine [not its blood] is offered to the just to gain immortality - yet it is Ormazd who executes the judgment - as annihilation of the wicked together with the destruction, not eternal punishment, of Ahriman and his demons, and a rejuvenated universe is the future happiness without evil. How is this identical to Christian eschatology as Freke and Gandy have claimed?

That ends our listing, and thus our conclusion: In not one instance has Acharya made a convincing case that Christianity borrowed anything from Mithraism. The evidence is either too late, not in line with the conclusions of modern Mithraic scholars, or just plain not there. Acharya will need a lot firmer documentation before any of her claims can be taken seriously.

Sources
Books that are in red have been bought by this ministry thanks to the contributions of readers like you, and have helped make this essay possible. If you would like to help us with our efforts in defending the faith, click here.

Beck.PO -- Beck, Roger. Planetary Gods and Planetary Orders in the Mysteries of Mithras. London: Brill, 1988.
Biv.PM -- Bivar, A. D. The Personalities of Mithra in Archaeology and Literature. New York: Bibliotheca Persica Press, 1998.
Cum.MM -- Cumont, Franz. The Mysteries of Mithra. New York: Dover, 1950.
Frek.JM -- Freke, Timothy and Peter Gandy. The Jesus Mysteries: Was the "Original Jesus" a Pagan God? New York: Harmony Books, 1999.
Gor.IV -- Gordon, Richard. Image and Value in the Greco-Roman World. Aldershot: Variorum, 1996.
Lae.MO -- Laeuchli, Samuel. Mithraism in Ostia: Mystery Religions and Christianity in the Ancient Port of Rome. Northwestern U. Press, 1967.
MS -- Mithraic Studies: Proceedings of the First International Congress of Mithraic Studies. Manchester U. Press, 1975.
Spei.MO -- Spiedel, Michael. Mithras-Orion, Greek Hero and Roman Army God. Leiden: E. J. Brill, 1980.
Ulan.OMM -- Ulansey, David. The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries: Cosmology and Salvation in the Ancient World. New York: Oxford U. Press, 1989.
Ver.MSG -- Vermaseren, M. J. Mithras the Secret God. New York: Barnes and Noble, 1963.
Wyn.MFC -- Wynne-Tyson, Esme. Mithras: The Fellow in the Cap. New York: Barnes and Noble, 1958.



To: Greg or e who wrote (16264)2/13/2004 1:50:03 PM
From: Solon  Respond to of 28931
 
LOL! Robert Turkel (aka, J.P. Holding) as "scholar"!

"I am very sure that Turkel realizes all this, and that is why he avoids links on his website and, at times, even hides the name of his opponents just as he tries to conceal his own name. After receiving Holtz's article, I e-mailed Turkel to ask if he intended to post Holtz's article on his website or at least give his readers a link. Here is the answer I received.

:A link for Mr Crybaby H.? Of course not. He is even more silly than you are. And twice as obnoxious, and three times more deluded about his own self-importance (5/20/02)."

infidels.org

'James Patrick Holding,' the Want-to-Be Apologist
Farrell Till



"James Patrick Holding is a pseudonym used by Robert Turkel to write website articles in defense of biblical inerrancy. For some reason, he doesn't want his real identity to be known, even though almost everyone familiar with his attempts to reply to articles written by Jeff Lowder, Brian Holtz, Earl Doherty, and me (among other skeptics) knows what his real name is. His rationale for concealing his identity was that he worked as a librarian in a prison, so he was afraid that if he wrote under his real name, inmates upon their release might seek vengeance on him for "disciplinary reports" he had written. He was never able to explain why using a phony name to write internet articles, which prison inmates would have no access to, was going to protect him from vengeance seeking ex-inmates who from daily contacts with him while they were in prison already knew his real name.

With just a little internet snooping and help from others, I was able to find quite a bit of information about Robert Turkel. [Editor's note: Personal information regarding Robert Turkel which is included in the original printed version has been expunged from this online version.]

The website of this prison can be accessed here. A description of the prison is on this site.

This facility was originally established as a migrant labor camp, but more recently housed a bait farm and beverage distribution warehouse. In 1973 it was converted to house adult male inmates. It is designated to accept minimum, medium, close custody and all medical grade inmates. Lake C. I. provides academic, vocational and self- betterment programs.

This is certainly no description of a maximum-security facility like Pelican Bay, so I doubt that the staff members live in fear that they are putting their lives on the line just by showing up for work. I have suggested to Turkel that if he really does use a phony name because he fears that ex-inmates may come after him when they are released, then he should consider getting professional help for his irrational paranoia.
There are over 100 inmates throughout the United States who subscribe to TSR, so I would be interested in hearing their opinions about this excuse that Turkel has used for writing under a phony name. There is obviously some ulterior motive behind Turkel's pseudonym. All across the country, district attorneys prosecute criminal offenses and judges impose sentences on those convicted without hiding behind fake names, so if the danger that released inmates with grudges will come after public officials is so likely that Turkel felt he had to put a pseudonym on the apologetic articles he wrote, I wonder why district attorneys and judges don't use phony names or wear masks in court. I would be interested in hearing inmates and prison officials express their opinions on Turkel's attempt to justify concealing his identity with a pseudonym.

Since beginning his "apologetic" career as James Patrick Holding, Turkel was laid off his prison job, so around October 2001 he began looking for support to begin a full-time career as an internet "apologist." He still uses the phony name and seems rather put out when anyone writes something that refers to him by his real name, but if he is not now working in a prison and, hence, no longer writes "disciplinary reports" [for those who are late checking their books back in, I assume], why does he still cringe in fear that some vengeful ex-inmate is going to come after him?

At any rate, Turkel is now trying to sell himself as an apologist who deserves the financial support of Bible believers so that he can become a full-time defender of the faith. He has established Tekton Apologetic Ministries, for which he has received IRS recognition as a 501 (c)(3) nonprofit, tax-exempt organization, and is soliciting contributions on its website here. In an article entitled "How To Help Support the Tekton Apologetics Ministry," which can be accessed here, he makes a plea for contributions on the grounds that "the majority of our support must come from the general public." It so happens that Skepticism, Inc., is also a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization, but if such a provision as this is a guideline that Turkel's "ministry" must adhere to, it has been added since Skepticism, Inc., received nonprofit approval on May 23, 1991. I have reviewed the approval documents sent to me, which outlined the guidelines that must be followed, and I have found nothing that states such a requirement. The guidelines, of course, allow contributions, but I see no provision that requires the majority of the organization's support to come from the "general public." Skepticism, Inc., has received contributions from supporters, but it has never solicited them. It has survived through the sale of subscriptions (which subscribers have always agreed were priced well below what they should be), unsolicited donations, and my own personal contributions. Periodic reports to IRS have been required, but in the forms I have completed, I never once encountered a question that asked if most of the organization's support came from the general public. I suspect that this statement in Turkel's plea for contributions was just his spin on IRS guidelines that was intended to make his readers think that their contributions are needed to help him comply with guidelines that he must meet in order to keep the nonprofit status of his organization.

His plea for money stated that Tekton Apologetic Ministries receives "referral fees through [its] association with Amazon.com in [its] Bookshop," but he quickly added that these earnings are "called ‘unrelated business’ income and cannot constitute the majority of this ministry's support." The message seems to be, "Please send your money so that I can make a living at this." He no doubt finds sitting home at his computer more enjoyable than writing disciplinary reports on prison inmates who dog-ear the library materials they check out.

No doubt Turkel will accuse me of impugning his motives, but unless his intention was to increase the flow of contributions to his "ministries," there was really no reason to apply for nonprofit status. I applied for recognition of The Skeptical Review as a nonprofit organization in order to get a substantial reduction in bulk-mailing rates, but when I learned that the post office would not issue a nonprofit mailing permit unless the organization was recognized by IRS, I then applied for and received 501(c)(3) status. After the mailing permit was received, I personally paid for all the mailings until subscriptions had increased enough to pay most of the costs. The nonprofit mailing rates decreased production costs enough that I could offer the paper at a rate of $4 per year when it was a quarterly and then $6 per year when it became bimonthly. At no time, did I ever solicit contributions, so except for the mailing advantage mentioned above, I would probably never have formed Skepticism, Inc. Turkel, on the other hand, doesn't publish paper editions of his articles, so he should have no appreciable mailing expenses. Even he stated in his website article that postage and supplies "should amount to less that [sic] $100 per year." He further stated in his plea for money that the cost of his website is just $35 per month, which is about $415 per month less than the monthly cost of dispensing TSR, so the yearly expenses for his website are rather minimal.

Why then does he want money? He has to want it for himself, and at one time he even said as much in his website article. He had set a goal of $28,000 to $29,000 per year in contributions to replace the salary he lost when he was laid off at the prison, but that part of the article has since been deleted. As the article now reads, his goal is to attract $70 to $80 as a "daily support requirement " that he will need "for full time operation" throughout the 365-day year. He set forth different plans in the article whereby contributors could pledge "daily sponsorships" of "70-80 dollars per year to support one day out of every year," and he will soon announce a program of half-day sponsorships. He even has a "PayPal" icon in the article, which contributors can click in order to authorize their pledges through Visa, MasterCharge, Discover, or American Express.


I'm not misrepresenting Turkel, then, when I say that his goal is to gather enough contributors to enable him to make a living writing his so-called apologetic articles. He is just what the world needs, another media evangelist urging people to send their money in. One has to wonder if this kind of enterprise will ever reach a point of diminishing return where there will be more of them than the public is willing to support. To increase his chances of joining the ranks of those who make their livings by pulling the wool over the sheep's eyes, maybe Turkel should put a catchy slogan in all articles on his website. How about, "Keep James Patrick Holding out of prison send your money now"?

The old Robert Turkel: From the time that Turkel first came onto the internet scene, he avoided situations that would put his apologetic "talents" to the test before informed opposition. He hunkered down on his own personal website, where he published "rebuttals" of anti-inerrancy articles under his pseudonym without giving his readers a chance to read both sides. Most website articles will include "links" when references to other articles are made so that readers can click onto the links, access the articles referred to, and then read what the authors said in the articles that are being criticized. This enables interested readers to study both sides of the question in dispute and form their opinions from having read what both disputants have said on the issue, but Turkel would put no links in his "rebuttal" articles. His tactic was to choose an article written in opposition to biblical inerrancy and then quote it selectively to give his readers the impression that he was giving the author of the article a sound thrashing, but his readers were never given the opportunity to see just how much Turkel skipped in his "replies." Some of us called him Robert "No Link" Turkel.

Turkel has recently indicated that he intends to change his ways and not just put links into his articles but also come out into an open forum and debate where readers will have the opportunity to see everything his opponent says rather than just what he selectively quotes. He is, in effect, claiming that there will be a new Turkel, but whether the new Turkel ever becomes a reality remains to be seen, because signs are coming in almost daily that his promise of change may be just talk.

I am revising this section of my article to show that Turkel's promise to allow his ideas to be scrutinized by informed opposition in an open-forum debate may just be damage control. On the day that I revised this section, I received a 216-K reply to Turkel that was written by Brian Holtz on the so-called "trilemma" issue parroted by biblicists who claim that Jesus was either "liar, lunatic, or lord." Holtz's detailed reply to Turkel's efforts to defend this illogical position can be accessed here. It reveals that Turkel has refused not only to put links in his "rebuttals" of Holtz's articles on this subject but also refuses to reveal Holtz's name to his readers. Turkel refers to Holtz as "our critic," so he apparently fears that if he refers to his "critic" by name, some of his gullible readers may actually have enough internet savvy to do a search and find the articles that Holtz has written on this subject. Turkel undoubtedly realizes that his position can't withstand that type of scrutiny, so he continues to dig in on his own little website where he can enjoy being the big fish in the little pond. If he ever comes out into the open to submit his "apologetic ministry" to informed review, even some of his readers may begin to see that he isn't quite the defender of the faith that he appears to be when he is preaching to his choir. That is a risk I am sure he doesn't want to take, especially now that he has lost his day job and is trying to find contributors who will support him in his ambition to become an on-line Gleason Archer or Josh McDowell. The trouncings he would inevitably take in open-forum debates on the internet just wouldn't look good on his resumé.

I am very sure that Turkel realizes all this, and that is why he avoids links on his website and, at times, even hides the name of his opponents just as he tries to conceal his own name. After receiving Holtz's article, I e-mailed Turkel to ask if he intended to post Holtz's article on his website or at least give his readers a link. Here is the answer I received.

A link for Mr Crybaby H.? Of course not. He is even more silly than you are. And twice as obnoxious, and three times more deluded about his own self-importance (5/20/02).

I told Turkel that my policy in The Skeptical Review has always been to publish the articles of biblical inerrantists so that readers can see for themselves just how ridiculous they can become in their desperation to defend their inerrancy belief. I suggested to Turkel that if Holtz is even half as incompetent as he claims, he should put Holtz's article on his website and let readers see for themselves just how silly he is. As I write this, Turkel hasn't yet indicated to me what his reaction to my suggestion will be. I predict that the new Turkel that he has been promising us will turn out to be the old Turkel, and his readers will never see Holtz's rebuttal. He will remain Robert "No Link" Turkel.
A new Turkel? For several years, I have occasionally received messages from Turkel admirers, who chided me for not answering articles about me that they had read on his website. I would forward to them copies of replies that I had written to a Turkel article, and inform them that for several years I had periodically challenged Turkel to defend biblical inerrancy in an open-forum internet debate where readers could see everything that both sides said on the issues and not just what Turkel would selectively quote from articles that he was "refuting." I would tell the writers of these queries that Turkel had refused those challenges, and then I would ask them to contact him and urge him to accept my challenge. I recall only one time that I received a reply to these materials, and this fellow had the integrity to tell me that after reading my responses to Turkel, he could see that I wasn't the incompetent klutz that Turkel had depicted on his website.

I have no way of knowing how many of these contacts acted on my request and urged Turkel to accept my challenge, but recently there have been indications that Turkel may be feeling the heat and now realizes that his continual rejection of the challenges may be making him look bad, because he finally published on his site the semblance of an acceptance of my challenge. This "acceptance" can be accessed here. Turkel's acceptance had conditions attached to it that were so patently absurd that he has since retreated from most of them. One condition was that I would have to pay 90% of the cost of maintaining his website, which would be 90% of $35 per month or $378 per year ($31.50 x 12), and would have to pay it eight years in advance. In other words, Turkel was saying that he would debate me on my site and his if I would just agree to pay him $3024 before the debate begins. (I guess his plea for money in the article mentioned above isn't bringing in the $80 per day he needs to be a "self- supporting" apologist.) I informed Turkel that I would pay a proportional cost of his website for as long as the debate continued, but that I certainly would not pay for eight years in advance. He has since informed me that he will debate me on a "neutral" site but will not post the debate on his own site, so this advanced-payment condition has been dispatched to the trash can where it belonged in the first place. But wait a minute! I have to add a comment to this paragraph. I just received a message from Turkel in which he informed me that the "neutral site," which he had arranged to post the debate on, will no longer be necessary, since I am going to publish it on my site. He said that he would put links to it on his site, but who knows what he will be saying by the time this article goes to press?
Another ridiculous condition to Turkel's "acceptance" was that I would first have to defend what I said about Marco Polo in "Did Marco Polo Lie?" (TSR, July/ August 1996, pp. 1, 11). Although Marco Polo was only incidental to the thesis of my article that had ruffled Turkel's feathers, I immediately accepted this condition, after which he wrote to tell me that he had another condition. While I was defending my Marco-Polo article, I would not be permitted to refer to the Bible, Christianity, inerrancy, or religion. My article had been written to illustrate how historians apply the same critical standards to ancient secular documents that they use to evaluate biblical claims, but Turkel wanted a provision in our debating agreement that would prohibit my referring to the Bible, inerrancy, Christianity, or religion as I defended what I had said in an article that pertained to the Bible, inerrancy, Christianity, and religion. This left no doubt that he wasn't about to enter into any serious debate on this or any other issue.

Since I was eager to get Turkel into an open-forum debate on biblical inerrancy, I agreed to accept this restriction if after the Marco-Polo strawman had been put to rest, he would then debate multiple propositions directly related to biblical inerrancy. I agreed to affirm this proposition: "Everything that Farrell Till said about Marco Polo in the July/August 1996 issue of The Skeptical Review was factually correct." Turkel immediately began to wiggle. In a reply to my proposal of this proposition, he said, "I know you want an expansion because it enables you to take refuge in vagueness and distractions rather than employing specifics, but that dog won't hunt with me. I know how you operate, and[,] Fife, I'm nipping it in the bud" (e-mail dated 4/29/02). That was the sum total of his reply to this, so what he meant by it is anybody's guess. I was never able to figure out how he could construe an offer to defend everything I had said about Marco Polo to be "an expansion" that would enable me to "take refuge in vagueness and distractions." Such a complaint would be in order if I had agreed to defend only some of what I had said about Marco Polo, but how could he object to my willingness to defend everything I had said about Polo? I suspect that when I accepted his challenge, he felt the pressure to say something but really didn't know what to say. He had insisted that I defend what I had said about Marco Polo in the article in dispute, and when I submitted a proposition that obligated me to defend everything I had said about Polo, he sent me the ambiguous reply above just to delay getting serious about negotiating an agreement. Turkel has since dropped the Marco Polo matter and has said that he wants to debate the issue of Yahweh's land promises to the Israelites. I informed him that this was acceptable to me but that we would need to agree on addition propositions, which we would debate after this one had been discussed. Trying to pin him down to other propositions has since proven to be somewhat like nailing Jello to a wall. I have proposed a proposition on the general inerrancy of the Bible, and he has not sent me a reply. I have proposed propositions on the fulfillment of Isaiah's and Ezekiel's prophecies against Babylon, Tyre, and Egypt, but all he has indicated is that he will agree to debate the Tyre prophecy. When I asked him why he would defend Ezekiel's prophecy against Tyre but would not defend his prophecy against Egypt, he informed me that there is "insufficient data." I tried to pin him down on specific details in Ezekiel's prophecy against Egypt. Would he, for example, agree to affirm that Egypt was once made desolate and uninhabited for a period of 40 years, during which no foot of man or beast passed through it, as prophesied in Ezekiel 29:11-12? Turkel skipped over this part of my letter without comment. I have asked if he will agree to debate the historicity of the biblical account of the wilderness wanderings, the character of God as depicted in the Old Testament, the resurrection of Jesus, the virgin birth of Jesus, and the historicity of biblical miracles, but Turkel has dismissed all of these inquiries as matters that he will not discuss until we have debated the land-promise issue. He talks boldly on his website in articles that he knows will be read primarily by his admirers, but when he is out of that pond, he flips and flops and finds all kinds of excuses not to defend his biblical beliefs in an open forum where he will have to confront informed opposition.

Those who are assisting me in switching TSR to an electronic format hope to have the website in operation by August, at which time this article and all others in this issue will be posted. I plan to write replies to some of Turkel's articles on his website, and these too will be posted here. Whether the promised "new" Turkel will put links on his site so that his readers can see these rebuttals remains to be seen. I predict that he won't.

I apologize for the space devoted to a would-be apologist whose bark is worse than his bite, but he makes a lot of static boasting on his closed forum. What the eventual outcome of Turkel's recent claims that he will at least give his readers links so that they can see what his opponents are writing in reply to his rantings remains to be seen. One day he says one thing the next day he says another. As this article goes to press, Turkel has retreated from a promise to reach a written agreement, which would include precisely worded debate propositions, and has said that he will go after me on his own without an agreement. He says that he will reply to my article "Yahweh's Failed Land Promise," which can be accessed here. He won't put my article on his site, but he has said that his reply will link to my original article. If he keeps this promise, his readers will see him get his nose wiped clean, because much better apologists than he is have tried to resolve this discrepancy. They couldn't do it, and he won't either."



To: Greg or e who wrote (16264)2/13/2004 1:53:32 PM
From: Solon  Respond to of 28931
 
20 or so articles discussing the "scholarship" of Robert Turkel!

exposed.faithweb.com



1.1 Brian Holtz

1.1.1 “Turkel and the Trilemma”

[hosted off-site]



1.1.2 “The Not-So-Impossible Faith” 1

--Article which rebuts Turkel’s attempt to “explain why Christianity succeeded where it should have clearly failed or died out.” (see Richard Carrier below for a comment on this article)

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1.1.3 Turkel Rebutted on Trilemma

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1.2 G. A. Wells

1.2.1 “A Reply to J.P. Holding’s ‘Shattering’ of My Views on Jesus and an Examination of the Early Pagan and Jewish References to Jesus (2000)”

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1.3 Richard Packham

1.3.1 Response to “Packham Refuted”

--Covers a refutation of John Warwick Montgomery's presentation of the legal evidence for Christianity

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1.4 Earl Doherty

1.4.1 “The Jesus Puzzle: Was There No Historical Jesus? // The Sound of Silence: 200 Missing References to the Gospel Jesus in the New Testament Epistles // Postscript: Including a Response to J.P. Holding’s rebuttal essay to The Sound of Silence”

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1.4.2 “The Jesus Puzzle: Was There No Historical Jesus?” by Earl Doherty “Reader Feedback and Author’s Response”

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1.5 Acharya S.

1.5.1 “Concerning ‘J.P. Holding’”

--An author’s view of Turkel following an encounter

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1.6 Cygnus

1.6.1 “Released From the Holding Cell: A Response to the Apologist, J.P. Holding”

--Critique of Turkel from another skeptic whom “J.P.” leveled his Christ-like demeanor toward

[hosted off-site]



1.7 Brooks

1.7.1 “Christianity: Bogus Beyond Belief” Review of Tekton Ministries and J.P. Holding

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1.8 Vincent Sapone

1.8.1 Nitpicking Holding’s Nativity: A Response to J.P. Holding’s Article “Nativity and Nitpicking.”

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1.9 Allan Glenn

1.9.1 A Reply to J.P. Holding’s “Allan Glenn’s Questionnaire, Filled Out Where We Specialize.”

--Turkel supplies “answers” to this young atheist’s set of questions.

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1.10 Adam Marczyk (“Ebon Musings”)

1.10.1 A Reply to J.P.Holding Parts I and II “Contradictions in the Old Testament”

--A well-spoken atheist responds to Turkel’s drivel that the OT does not contain contradictory passages.

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1.11 Kenneth Richard Smith Quinnell, Jr.

1.11.1 Debate with James Patrick Holding

--Not really a “debate,” but more of a reply to one of Turkel’s typical acid-filled essays written in response to one of Mr. Quinnell’s articles.

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1.12 Farrell Till

1.12.1 “James Patrick Holding,” the Want-to-Be Apologist

--Farrell Till reveals to the readers of Internet Infidels the person of Robert Turkel, showing both sides of his split personality: the “old” and the “new.”

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1.12.2 “The Chicken Challenge: Or Turkel Looks Bad In Yellow”

--Farrell Till accepts Turkel’s “Chicken Challenge” and responds with daring Turkel to join his errancy

discussion list. To date (and true to form) Turkel has not joined the list of informed skeptics.

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1.12.3 “The Turkey Challenge”

--Farrell Till responds to Turkel’s evasion of the above article, “The Chicken Challenge.”

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1.12.4 “The Skeptical Review Online: Debate Index”

Look for the Turkel Debates.

--Includes discussion of Abraham’s land promise. Covers biblical books Genesis, Exodus, Deuteronomy, Joshua, and Leviticus.

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1.12.5 “Reply to Robert Turkel”: Farrell Till Roasts Turkel’s Attempted Apologetic Regarding the Jehu.

--Covers the incident as recorded in the biblical book 2 Kings.

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1.12.6 Robert Turkel and His “Commentators of All Stripes”

--In this little known pair of articles, Farrell Till takes a look at references Turkel used in their Jehu debate (above, 1.12.4).

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1.12.7 “Give Us This Day Our Daily Dodge: A Reply to ‘Trick or Treat, Got Some Bread?’”

--Covers verses from the Gospel of Mark and 1 Samuel, regarding Jesus’ (inaccurate) account of David’s meeting with Ahimelech/Abiathar.
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1.12.8 “Yes, Why Didn’t They Know? (or The Bop That Flopped)” : A Reply to “Why Didn’t They Know?”
--Covers verses from the gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke/Acts, and John as well as Romans and 1 Corinthians, regarding how everyone else in the New Testament seemed to know that Jesus would rise on the third day except his disciples.

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1.12.9 “Huffing and Puffing, but Blowing No Houses Down: A Reply to Turkel’s Abiathar Quibble”
--Was Abiathar or Ahimelech “high priest” in the day David asked about the bread? (see 1.12.6)
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1.12.10 “The Humpty Dumpty of Apologetics”: A Reply to Turkel’s “Olivet Discourse”

--Turkel is a “preterist”. He believes the “prophecies” of the New Testament were fulfilled in 70 CE. This article exposes this belief along with Turkel’s tendency to create new definitions for words that otherwise are unambiguous to the normal reader or professional Bible translator.

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1.12.11 The Mary Magdalene Problem: A Reply to “Tomb Visitor Checklist: Do the Gospels Contradict

Over Who Went to Jesus’ Tomb?”

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1.12.12 It Doesn’t Matter? Turkel Tries Another Twist: A Reply to “Precisely the Opposite: On Gospel

Details and Precision in Narratives.”

--In this article, Till shows Turkel’s excuse for dismissing discrepancies in the gospel narratives

as something that “wouldn’t bother” ancient readers as something short of convincing.

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1.12.13 “Drooling for Dollars”

--Till shows Turkel’s false analogy in trying to compare his requests for donations with the

Freedom from Religion’s membership dues.

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1.12.14 Where Are The Links? Or Turkel Hides Again.

--Turkel promised to at least link to all the articles Till wrote while debating various subjects. In the

beginning, Turkel followed through with his commitment. As time wore on, and Turkel began to

look more and more ridiculous and as he devolved into his usual vicious personal attacks, the links

stopped. In this article, Till examines Turkel’s hypocricy.

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1.12.15 “E-mail” regarding Turkel’s continuing refusal to debate Farrell Till

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1.13 Doug Krueger

1.13.1 The Great Divorce Debate

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1.14 1Richard Carrier

1.14.1 “Richard Carrier Comments on ‘The Not-So-Impossible Faith’ by Brian Holtz”

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1.15 Cliff Walker

1.15.1 “E-mail” in which Cliff Walker, webmaster of “Positive Atheism,” discusses his discovery of Tektonics

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1.16 John P. Kesler

1.16.1 Ishbosheth and the House of Saul

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1.16.2 Jesus Had Two Asses

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1.16.3 Animals of the Ark

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1.17 Russell C. McGregor

1.17.1 The Anti-Mormon Attackers

--Mormon Russell C. McGregor of Brigham Young University reviews Turkel’s book, “The Mormon Defenders.” Obviously unaware of Turkel’s style on his website, McGregor nonetheless correctly detects Turkel’s hypocritical and stuffed-shirt antics.

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1.18 David R. Gleeson

1.18.1 Irrational Faith

-- Skeptic David Gleeson comments on Turkel’s article, “Fallacious Faith.” A wonderfully written piece that examines Turkel’s definition of the Christian faith.

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1.19 Kyle Gerkin

1.19.1 Holding Overruled!

--This is a response to a review by Turkel of a piece by Mr. Gerkin entitled “Objections Sustained,” a critique of Lee Strobel’s book, The Case for Faith.

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1.20 Joe Wallack

1.20.1 Apologies and the Apologists Who Tell Them

--The following comes from a post found on the Internet Infidel’s Forum

[hosted on-site]



1.21 PTET

1.21.1 PTET Answers Tektonics

--Evidently, Turkel tried to embarrass this fellow some time back and he has penned a response.

[hosted off-site]

***


1.22 Brett Palmer

1.22.1 Playing The Numbers Game

--As part of a larger discussion on the population of Israelites that participated in the Exodus, Turkels ludicrous defense of 3 million souls expanding from a tribe of 70 is systematically demolished.

[hosted off-site]

***


1.23 Anonymous Submissions

-If I receive any correspondence in the mail with no attribution, I will place that material here:



1.23.1 Writer Debates Turkel’s Take on Mythist Joseph Campbell

[hosted on-site]





BONUS MATERIAL:



Click the link below to read some of the “darndest things” fundamentalists like those who follow Turkel’s “apologetics” say…



Fundies Say the Darndest Things!



…and you’ll never wonder why Turkel is so popular with this crowd again!



To: Greg or e who wrote (16264)2/13/2004 1:57:17 PM
From: Solon  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 28931
 
members.aol.com

This is a really fun read on Robert "no link" Turkel. Hillarious expose...<g>

A SMALL SAMPLE!

Despite biblical admonitions against the sin of pride, Turkel brags constantly and with great enthusiasm about what he perceives is his thorough dismantling of skeptical arguments. He often uses very violent imagery to describe the destruction he assumes he is wreaking. Indeed, he believes that he is a "warrior" in a holy war for God, that God is actually working through him and his web site. In a plea for cash to support his efforts, Turkel wrote the following:

"We need Tekton full time. Mr. Walker's impotence and fish-flopping is plain evidence (only the latest!) of this ministry's effectiveness, of the Holy Spirit's movement through these pages. Please submit your testimony and help make full-time ministry a reality. Free my warrior side from its shackles, and let the destruction of strongholds begin in earnest." (LOL!)

As was noted above, he heaps insults on those who do not agree with him. He does it constantly and even derides other Christians. He will invent babyish nicknames for people in an effort to minimize and denigrate them. His insults become more petulant and childish directly in proportion to how powerfully his claims are being refuted or how desperately he is trying to dodge a question. Many people would describe this type of behavior from a 34-year-old man as incredibly immature, possibly indicative of some form of mental illness. However, Turkel sees things a little differently. To Turkel, spewing childish insults is a way to appear cocky and confident, and he believes that this ultimately helps him to win souls for the Lord. The following is from a "Tektonic Ministries" essay:"

"If you play the nice guy, you're likely to get swarmed, not by any irrefutable arguments, but rather, by a veritable skyscraper of excess and inflammatory verbiage. And unfortunately, there are those, on both sides of the argument, who are persuaded by such things. We are humans, not computers, and a show of confidence or arrogance does, to some, seem to equate with being the victor."