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Politics : Formerly About Advanced Micro Devices -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: d[-_-]b who wrote (182981)	2/18/2004 5:31:55 PM
From: tejek	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1578127

That's pretty much how Bernard Lewis paints it in his book "What went wrong" - yet reviewers have picked apart bits of it here and there, I need to go get a copy. Where he seems to get into trouble is that he supports doing something like what we did in Iraq precisely because of corrupt leaders and their inability to do anything. They've had centuries to adapt to modern times yet they have not - he seems to think they need to be lead whether they like it or not into the 21st century and democracy> Then apparently he's changed his mind since 1990. In the article we both read this is what he said: <font color=blue>"To this end we must strive to achieve a better appreciation of other religious and political cultures, through the study of their history, their literature, and their achievements. At the same time, we may hope that they will try to achieve a better understanding of ours, and especially that they will understand and respect, even if they do not choose to adopt for themselves, our Western perception of the proper relationship between religion and politics. To describe this perception I shall end as I began, with a quotation from an American President, this time not the justly celebrated Thomas Jefferson but the somewhat unjustly neglected John Tyler, who, in a letter dated July 10, 1843, gave eloquent and indeed prophetic expression to the principle of religious freedom: The United States have adventured upon a great and noble experiment, which is believed to have been hazarded in the absence of all previous precedent -- that of total separation of Church and State. No religious establishment by law exists among us. The conscience is left free from all restraint and each is permitted to worship his Maker after his own judgement. The offices of the Government are open alike to all. No tithes are levied to support an established Hierarchy, nor is the fallible judgement of man set up as the sure and infallible creed of faith. The Mahommedan, if he will to come among us would have the privilege guaranteed to him by the constitution to worship according to the Koran; and the East Indian might erect a shrine to Brahma if it so pleased him. Such is the spirit of toleration inculcated by our political Institutions.... The Hebrew persecuted and down trodden in other regions takes up his abode among us with none to make him afraid.... and the Aegis of the Government is over him to defend and protect him. Such is the great experiment which we have tried, and such are the happy fruits which have resulted from it; our system of free government would be imperfect without it. The body may be oppressed and manacled and yet survive; but if the mind of man be fettered, its energies and faculties perish, and what remains is of the earth, earthly. Mind should be free as the light or as the air."

To: d[-_-]b who wrote (182981)	2/19/2004 10:28:43 AM
From: hmaly	Respond to of 1578127

Eric....Re...Where he seems to get into trouble is that he supports doing something like what we did in Iraq precisely because of corrupt leaders and their inability to do anything. They've had centuries to adapt to modern times yet they have not - he seems to think they need to be lead whether they like it or not into the 21st century and democracy. Which is a very astute observation, coming when it did, before the advent of OBL, and the extreme fanaticism of the Wahhabi. And it is the very reason I support the war. If we are to get rid of this scourge upon the world called fundamentalism, now is the time to do it. The arab cultures have indeed been driven down over time, by their incapacity to change, to a changing world. Modern medicine has increased the longevity of man, while the Islamic culture refuses to adapt the changes necessary, to provide for the exploding population growth rates in the arab world. For instance, according to the CIA fact book, Iraq, even with the massive starvation of children, bought on by the sanctions, the Iran Iraq war, and killings by Saddam, has over double the population growth rate of the US, and triple Italy's. Yet Iraqs ability to feed, and house said population, is mired in centuries old traditions. As to those who say we should wait, we should ask ourselves, wait for what. Within 50 yrs, the greatest source of income the arab world has, in fact the only resource, that is preventing massive starvation now; oil, will run out. Then what? And in historic terms, 50 yrs is but a pittance. Nor can the US take a chance on the oil falling into our enemies hands completely, as that could be a huge weapon, greater than many atomic bombs, by which the Islamic world could bring our living standards down to theirs, and cause starvation in our societies, compared to theirs. Lets not kid ourselves, there is no way the west would let that happen, and the likely alternative would be another WWIII. And lets not kid ourselves, while the arabs may be turned into specs of white dust, on a sea of sand, the west will also lose. 9/11, and other terrorist acts, have forced us to stop the wait and see attitude, and forced the US to live up to reality. The arab world, has been disintergrating for 7 centuries; and will continue, unless there is a spark to create the necessary changes, which will allow the arab world, and its exploding population growths rates to live at peace in the world. That is what should have happened in Japan and Germany before WWII, and must be done in the ME before WWIII explodes upon us.