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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: carranza2 who wrote (124838)	2/19/2004 5:59:03 PM
From: Bill Ulrich	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

I'm not sure if that would've helped. Klaus Fuchs was already passing Manhattan Project material to the Soviets as early as 1942, a couple of years before the Rosenbergs became involved. I think the Soviets were destined to have it. A couple of the more "idealistic" scientists were determined to ensure the technology would not be owned by just one country. So, politically, it may have been the wise thing to do, but the American scientists were going to feed the Soviet scientists anyway. Post-WWII, as you suggest, was already too late. The only foolproof course would have been to kill all the Manhattan Project scientists before the Manhattan Project got started. <yes, i'm kidding> "The wise thing to have done was to utterly, ruthlessly and credibly destroyed the technology after using it in WWII, then instituted severe controls on the production of enriched material in atomic power plants because, face it, the first pro-life-[a]rators were the Rosenbergs."

To: carranza2 who wrote (124838)	2/19/2004 8:36:25 PM
From: TimF	Respond to of 281500

If we didn't have the evil things after WWII, the Russkies wouldn't have wanted them either since there would have been nothing to get MAD about Even if we didn't have them the leaders of the USSR would have had liked to have nukes at least as a deterent to American conventional force but also as a way of getting us to back off when our interest came in to conflict. Everyone wants the stuff because it makes your tribe powerful. Better to have gotten rid of the stuff forever, then controlled its development with an iron hand. How could this have been done? Tim

To: carranza2 who wrote (124838)	2/20/2004 2:42:20 AM
From: Maurice Winn	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

C2, re <Everyone wants the stuff because it makes your tribe powerful. > Over the last century, there has been a major paradigm shift happen in this "tribal" power. The process has been under way for 2000 years, but it has really only become normalized over the past century, with bulk communications and migrations between tribes. Let's give credit where it's due, Islamic Jihad has got a major good point, which is that the Islamic tribe isn't based on genetics, it's based on a way of life. Anyone can sign up, whatever their race. The same could be said for communism and Christianity [though Christians seemed to be very racist for a lot of Christian history - slaves in the USA were apparently part of God's plan in the Christian view]. "Tribal" power has moved from tribes [in gene-based groups] to meme-based groups. That's real progress and to be applauded. We can't change our genes but we can change our mind. Hooray for Islam [in that regard]. Accepting that you meant "tribe" in a meme sense, rather than a genetic Master race sense, we still have to resolve the meme competition. The idea-ology of how things work. My preferred meme is self-determined individuals with free will, private property and voluntary interchange with others. Islamic Jihad, communism, Christianity, statism [USA, NZ, Europe, China, etc are all heavily into statist dogmatic suppression of individual freedom, albeit some more than others] are the opposition [along with other individual freedom-suppressing ideologies]. That battle has been running for millennia and isn't ending any time soon. Those who would enslave and suppress others deserve a bullet in their head [or other means of demise]. Better than a bullet would be persuasion. The great thing about memes is that there's no exclusion of others as there is with historical DNA-based tribal wars. We can all sign up to the one true path to peace, light, harmony, happiness, health, prosperity, longevity, fun and love, [CDMA]. All are welcome, whatever their DNA, race, tribe etc. I quite like nukes on the GGG side. But the best way to change minds is with $ and reasoning. Mqurice