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Politics : Should God be replaced? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: briskit who wrote (16445)2/29/2004 11:14:49 AM
From: Solon  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 28931
 
I hardly think it is sufficient to credit ancient stories as "historical" on the subjective basis that they don't have the "texture and tone" (in the mind of Lewis) of mythology. If you wish to base your own belief on the belief of Lewis rather than on a personal attempt to link anything within the "gospels" with historical fact, then you are exercising your prerogative and privilege.

I would surely be very interested in any assertions of historical authenticity for any of the "events" in the gospels. In the meantime, much scholarship has gone on since Lewis died on material that was unavailable to him.

You are quite right that the question of God is larger than the question of historical beliefs and evidence. However, our present discussion is simply about whether or not there is historical evidence for the "events" of the gospels. Telling me that someone believed that the gospels did not have the "tone" of mythology does not supply evidence for their historical reliability. Indeed, the silence of history regarding such extraordinary "events" is damning in the extreme.

infidels.org

tjresearch.info

tjresearch.info

"This site presents the results of 15 years' analysis of the Talmud of Jmmanuel (TJ), showing, largely through comparison with the Gospel of Matthew, that the TJ was the source for that gospel.

The TJ informs us precisely which Matthean verses are genuine, which are partly genuine, and which are pure invention. In over 100 comparisons of parallel passages, the arguments pointing to Matthean dependence upon the TJ are seen to be difficult to reverse, and in all other instances the differences between the two are also consistent with TJ genuineness. Tests for TJ genuineness are indirect because its original Aramaic scrolls were destroyed due to their heresies, and only the German translation survived. From the TJ one sees that 19th-century scholars erred in assuming that Mark came before Matthew."



To: briskit who wrote (16445)2/29/2004 11:18:30 AM
From: Solon  Respond to of 28931
 
The Gospels--historical accounts? Not likely.

nobeliefs.com

"...What appears most revealing of all, comes not from what got later written about Jesus but what people did not write about him. Consider that not a single historian, philosopher, scribe or follower who lived before or during the alleged time of Jesus ever mentions him!

If, indeed, the Gospels portray a historical look at the life of Jesus, then the one feature that stands out prominently within the stories shows that people claimed to know Jesus far and wide, not only by a great multitude of followers but by the great priests, the Roman governor Pilate, and Herod who claims that he had heard "of the fame of Jesus" (Matt 14:1)". One need only read Matt: 4:25 where it claims that "there followed him [Jesus] great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jersulaem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordon." The gospels mention, countless times, the great multitude that followed Jesus and crowds of people who congregated to hear him. So crowded had some of these gatherings grown, that Luke 12:1 alleges that an "innumberable multitude of people... trode one upon another." Luke 5:15 says that there grew "a fame abroad of him: and great multitudes came together to hear..." The persecution of Jesus in Jerusalem drew so much attention that all the chief priests and scribes, including the high priest Caiaphas, not only knew about him but helped in his alleged crucifixion. (see Matt 21:15-23, 26:3, Luke 19:47, 23:13). The multitude of people thought of Jesus, not only as a teacher and a miracle healer, but a prophet (see Matt:14:5).

So here we have the gospels portraying Jesus as famous far and wide, a prophet and healer, with great multitudes of people who knew about him, including the greatest Jewish high priests and the Roman authorities of the area, and not one person records his existence during his lifetime? If the poor, the rich, the rulers, the highest priests, and the scribes knew about Jesus, who would not have heard of him?

Then we have a particular astronomical event that would have attracted the attention of anyone interested in the "heavens." According to Luke 23:44-45, there occurred "about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour, and the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst." Yet not a single mention of such a three hour ecliptic event got recorded by anyone, including the astronomers and astrologers, anywhere in the world. Nor does a single contemporary person write about the earthquake described in Matthew 27:51-54 where the earth shook, rocks ripped apart (rent), and graves opened.

Matthew 2 describes Herod and all of Jerusalem as troubled by the worship of the infant Jesus. Herod then had all of the children of Bethlehem slain. If such extraordinary infanticides of this magnitude had occurred, why didn't anyone write about it?

Some apologists attempt to dig themselves out of this problem by claiming that there lived no capable historians during that period, or due to the lack of education of the people with a writing capacity, or even sillier, the scarcity of paper gave reason why no one recorded their "savior." But the area in and surrounding Jerusalem served, in fact, as the center of education and record keeping for the Jewish people. The Romans, of course, also kept many records. Moreover, the gospels mention scribes many times, not only as followers of Jesus but the scribes connected with the high priests. And as for historians, there lived plenty at the time who had the capacity and capability to record, not only insignificant gossip, but significant events, especially from a religious sect who drew so much popular attention through an allegedly famous and infamous Jesus.

Take, for example, the works of Philo Judaeus who's birth occurred in 20 B.C.E. and died 50 C.E. He lived as the greatest Jewish-Hellenistic philosopher and historian of the time and lived in the area of Jerusalem during the alleged life of Jesus. He wrote detailed accounts of the Jewish events that occurred in the surrounding area. Yet not once, in all of his volumes of writings, do we read a single account of a Jesus "the Christ." Nor do we find any mention of Jesus in Seneca's (4? B.C.E. - 65 C.E.) writings, nor from the historian Pliny the Elder (23? - 79 C.E.).

If, indeed, such a well known Jesus existed, as the gospels allege, does any reader here think it reasonable that, at the very least, the fame of Jesus would not have reached the ears of one of these men?

Amazingly, we have not one Jewish, Greek, or Roman writer, even those who lived in the Middle East, much less anywhere else on the earth, who ever mention him during his supposed life time. This appears quite extraordinary, and you will find few Christian apologists who dare mention this embarrassing fact.


To illustrate this extraordinary absence of Jesus Christ literature, just imagine going through nineteenth century literature looking for an Abraham Lincoln but unable to find a single mention of him in any writing on earth until the 20th century. Yet straight-faced Christian apologists and historians want you to buy a factual Jesus out of a dearth void of evidence, and rely on nothing but hearsay written well after his purported life. Considering that most Christians believe that Jesus lived as God on earth, the Almighty gives an embarrassing example for explaining his existence. You'd think a Creator might at least have the ability to bark up some good solid evidence."



To: briskit who wrote (16445)2/29/2004 11:26:28 AM
From: Solon  Respond to of 28931
 
Here is a book in four parts which you may find interesting

humanists.net

humanists.net

humanists.net

humanists.net



To: briskit who wrote (16445)2/29/2004 11:33:50 AM
From: Solon  Respond to of 28931
 
More on the historicity of Jesus...

pages.ca.inter.net

"My own research in this field goes back almost 20 years, when I first encountered a serious presentation of the theory in Professor Wells. Although my university training was not in New Testament studies, I have a degree in Ancient History and Classical Languages, giving me a working knowledge of Greek and Latin, which I have supplemented with the basics of Hebrew and Syriac. In addition to the New Testament, along with many parts of the Old, I have thoroughly investigated all the non-canonical Christian documents, the 2nd and 3rd century Apologists, all the relevant Jewish Pseudepigrapha of the era together with the Dead Sea scrolls, plus much of Christian and non-Christian Gnosticism. To this I have added a study of Philo of Alexandria, Middle Platonism and other philosophies, relevant ancient historians, Hellenistic mystery cults and the general religious thought of the era."