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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Jacob Snyder who wrote (125413)	3/2/2004 4:17:27 AM
From: NightOwl	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Issue No. 1: The Life And Liberty for Jose, is it meaningful? NO: <The only way you get justice from any "criminal justice system" is to stay far away from it. Mr. Padilla clearly never appreciated that lesson. But the life and liberty of a "suspected" revolutionary/terrorist - or yours for that matter - has whatever meaning it has, whether I recognize, accept or appreciate it or not. Lord help them ...and you... if this should cease to be the case. <vbg> > JS: Maybe I don't understand you, here. Are you saying that anybody who comes to the attention of the criminal justice system, if the President says they have done something sufficiently heineous, then you presume they are guilty until proven innocent? And, if that's true, then how can Padilla ever prove his innocence? Do you see any path, any mechanism, anything he can do, to counter this presumption of guilt? ISSUE No. 2: Should Jose get out of this mess? NO: <As far as I'm concerned he can stew in his juices.> JS: So, you are satisfied as to his guilt. No courtroom, no judge, no jury, no trial. Because the nation is at war, because of your fear, you are willing to sweep aside every protection. If the President can seize anyone by labelling them an "illegal combatant", and if the President has sole power to attach that label to anyone, then we are not a Republic any more. The Roman Republic, for the duration of hostilities, would elect Dictators, who had life-and-death power. That's exactly the power Bush claims, and he seems to be getting away with it. Now first of all JS. If you want to understand what I am saying, you need to wipe your mind of all this "President" stuff. I haven't mentioned the office and frankly don't see what it has to do with either of the issues presented. Let me state this plainly: I don't care who the President is. ...Oh I take that back. I'd probably die if Al Sharpton were President. ...And if Louis Farrakhan(?) ever got elected we would no doubt all die. But none of that has anything to do with Jose and his difficulty successfully competing on this planet. On ISSUE NO 1, I can only state that you have given me absolutely no reason to give a good Hoot about what happens to Mr. Padilla. Ordinarily there are only two ways you could get that reaction from me: A. The hard way would be to show me that his "life and liberty" is being cut off for the very beliefs, thoughts and/or conduct which I hold dear. And the dearer the better. "Lip service" certainly won't do. [Before you jump to the conclusion that this option is simply a matter of facile "exposition," don't forget the blood which has been/is shed for things held "dear."] B. The easier, and thus more frequently applied, method for winning my "Hoots" would be to give me something of value. Since, in this case you tell me that he's "probably" guilty of some heinous stuff, that "value" will of course be very high. Foaming at the vents about how unfair, undemocratic, un-American, un-Jeffersonian, unfree, unholy or, dare I say, unNUN it is will cut no ice with me ...or anyone else operating under "natural processes" at variance with your own. We know that justice is all of these, and more most of the time. But it is clear that you have bought the Sacred Myth of the "Nation of Laws, Not of Men." ...Perhaps that is also at the root of Mr. Padilla's predicament, wHoo can say? ...In any case I and my fellow Owls don't labor under such delusions. After years of watching the Sacred Myth in action, it is clear to us that the Deadly Dichotomies of DNA are in fact the exclusive founding principles of all Nations... and thus we know that "justice" comes to those who pay, unless you can beat it out of them. You need to understand this before you can ever hope to be of any benefit to Jose. You see Jacob, you can have the justice you seek, for Jose or otherwise, but it will eat you too. ...In Padilla's case it will cost you big time. It is either (A) or (B). One of these must be given. For your sake I hope you save your ammo for a more direct benefit than the "meaning" in Jose Padilla's existence. Oh it is certainly an interesting existence. I'll grant you that. But I am not about to bleed for it. ...And I am fairly sure that you will need all the blood you can muster before the Deadly Dichotomies of DNA are through with you. <Hoo><Hoo><Haa> 0\|0