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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Jacob Snyder who wrote (125486)	3/2/2004 4:04:04 PM
From: NightOwl	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

The above is a true story, and you can read all about it in Jane Goodall's books on chimp behavior. (sigh) Jacob... If Jane Goodall had a grave, I am quite sure that she would now be rolling over in it. ...Continously. ...For the rest of eternity. I will leave you to your "Throne of Altruism In Extremist." Secure in the knowledge that we have one less "responsible" competitor in the race. 0\|0

To: Jacob Snyder who wrote (125486)	3/3/2004 6:36:09 AM
From: NightOwl	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

OK Jacob, It's the wee hours so let's find out what this monkey business is all about. You say: The Altruists often out-compete, and come out on top. Selfish self-interest can lead to sharing, cooperating, forgiving.......even loving your enemies. You need to read the modern Darwinists, and abandon your 19th Century Darwinism. I don't think it matters much whether I read the old or new evolutionists. It seems much more important that I don't read too much, into whatever it is I read. For instance... I was initially put off by your use of the term "Altruism" in describing the behavior of Ms. Goodall's pals. This resulted from the generalized meaning I typically "read into" the term, i.e., selflessness. But I don't know everything so I looked it up and low and behold I found that there is a more specific zoological usage, to wit: "Instinctive cooperative behavior that is detrimental to the individual but contributes to the survival of the species." Frankly, I don't understand how this definition could apply to the facts of life you gave for the "Altruist Chimp." Then too, I am also in the dark as to how either of us could have an ancestor accurately categorized as one of Ms. Goodall's chimps, but I won't go there. <vbg> Let me make a long answer, less long: 1. I believe you can be an altruist, whether by instinct or volition. Not that I believe you are... yet. I am simply saying you can do that and still be OK in my book. 2. I believe that people who exhibit altruistic conduct can also exhibit competitive conduct... but not at the same time and in the same space with reference to the same objective. 3. Moreover I will certainly agree that it would be very bad indeed if every male was Alpha; or if everyone was ruggedly individualistic and uncooperative... Diversity is a good thing most of the time as far as I'm concerned. 4. In retrospect it appears that the chimp story was in fact an attempt to demonstrate that the Golden Rule, altruism, cooperation, and the freedom to go where I please and say what I will all weigh in favor of my getting off my duff and springing Mr. Padilla from the evil clutches of whatever authority has kidnapped him. If this is true let me first say I appreciate your effort, but I am not so moved. 5. I am not sure why it is you have missed my mark so badly, but I think things get off track when you move from the abstract concepts (e.g., altruism, cooperation, liberty, freedom) to the specific, i.e., Jose Padilla. Perhaps an example: 6. You and I are sitting on my front porch. Sunny Day. Neighborhood kids playing in the street. Crack House 5 houses down the block. I go in the house for matters of personal hygiene. While I'm gone a white Bronco comes barreling down the street driven some crazed Crack Head who just can't wait for his next score. On his way to the Crack House he runs over a 6 year old girl whose family lives across the street. He does not stop, but goes into the Crack House. Upon hearing what has happened to his only child, the little girl's uncle and father grab some guns and a can of gasoline, clearly intending to burn down the Crack House, or do bodily injury to someone. ...At that moment I return to the front porch and you tell me that I must cooperate with you to intervene and save the Crack Heads and/or their property from the aggrieved vigilantes. Naturally, I ask why and you say "altruism;" provide me with 2 quotes from Jefferson; and tell me, "it's the Crack Heads today, tomorrow it will be you! Plus these vigilantes are going to restrict your freedom to speed down your own street if you want to." 7. Can you see any differences between the Crack Heads and a Gandhi or MLK? ...And more to the point is Jose a Crack Head or a Gandhi? 0\|0