SI
SI
discoversearch

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor.  We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community.  If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.
Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Bilow who wrote (126062)3/12/2004 10:53:44 PM
From: Sam  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
Just heard that 4 of the 6 people arrested for the murder of the two American civilians were US hired Iraqi police. Not fake IDs, but real ones. The military guy who commented on it was rather grim. As he ought to be.



To: Bilow who wrote (126062)3/12/2004 11:56:29 PM
From: NightOwl  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Hoo! Hoo!

Let's see if we can agree:
"My point is that preventing terrorism is primarily a police problem, using the laws against conspiracy etc., not a military problem, using soldiers. What's your point?"

I agree with your first bit, but can't agree with the second in so far as Islamic terrorism is concerned. Comparisons to whacko anarchists, or white supremacists indigenous to this country or it's "protectorates" blowing up things in NYC, DC, or OKC, not withstanding, I have seen nothing suggesting that civil institutions of this or any country can handle the OBL form of criminal/terrorism.

Most recently Pakistan's Tribal leaders have "pledged" to root out the foreign "conspirators." We shall see. ...In any case, not being Pakistani and being unwilling to rely on their "law enforcement," I tend to think of OBL's location there as a "military problem" and that your definition of "military problem" unnecessarily limited.

Where do you get the idea that there is a solution to terrorism?

Well I got the idea for the 5% solution from you. :)

For myself the Deadly Dichotomy admits of no perfect solutions. All must eat dirt and die, ...but I suppose that could be called a solution for such creatures as may come after. I take it we are in agreement as to there being no "perfect" solutions.

Can we also agree that there are many different solutions and that their levels of success or failure will vary?

I think we might be able to further agree that people can only use the tools they have to address a problem. But that may be as far as our agreement will reach.

I also think it quite likely that if the use of one tool proves inadequate, most people will move on to a new tool if one is available. But as I said above, I assume your definition of "military problem," (and possibly your view of the proper use of tools) is something we won't agree on.

As best I can tell we've had at least two generations of Iraqi's, Saudi's, Iranians, etc... already growing up being taught that America is Satan and to be despised. The indoctrination has apparently sunk in sufficiently to bring an effective number of the trainees to our door.

I don't see this as a technology transference problem. If the difference is between whether the trainees arrive with a remote control roadside bomb, rocket, or a stick of dynamite and a match, it's pretty much the same to me.

Given the circumstances post 9/11 and an inability to know things perfectly, I see no basis to criticize the move into Iraq. As far as I know, Pakistan may have become the permanent refuge for OBL in the absence of that kind of "performance art." He may yet. Heck, for all I know Pakistan is one assassin's bullet away from officially designating OBL the new Minister of Defense. If so I will be well and truly pleased to have the capability to have troops in Iraq.

0|0



To: Bilow who wrote (126062)3/13/2004 10:34:39 AM
From: Rascal  Respond to of 281500
 
U.S. Wants Military Control in Iraq, Even After Sovereignty Handed Over

By Jim Krane Associated Press Writer
Published: Mar 13, 2004

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - In less than four months, a sovereign Iraqi government will have authority to impose restrictions on U.S. troops, or even request that they leave.
U.S. military officials here, who are already planning for American forces to be in Iraq through 2005, insist the latter option won't happen.

"We intend to stay here as invited guests as long as we are needed, as long as we are wanted, and as long as we are invited," Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, deputy operations chief, said this week.

U.S. officials want to make sure American forces are free to continue to kill insurgents, interrogate prisoners and command Iraq's new security forces.

But the rules that troops follow after the June 30 handover have yet to be written, and Iraq's government will have a say.

Iraq's transitional government is expected to "invite" the U.S. military to stay in control of Iraq's security, technically ending America's status as occupier. U.S. and British leaders say they expect few practical aspects of the occupation to change right away.

Military control will probably fall under a U.S.-headed joint command. Officials said plans are afoot to put an American four-star general at the head of the command, with a three-star general running operations. The current top U.S. commander in Iraq, Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, is a three-star general.

"That is the scheme which is being planned at the moment," a senior British official said condition of anonymity. "The Americans will announce it when it is all ready."

On Saturday, a U.S. official said Iraq's future Defense Ministry will have fewer than 100 employees, led by a civilian staff approved by Iraq's U.S. overseer, L. Paul Bremer.

The official, who spoke to a group of reporters on condition of anonymity, said the ministry was designed by officials from several countries in the U.S.-led coalition. He said the ministry plan was "discussed at length with many Iraqis," but did not name them.

Iraq's U.S.-picked Governing Council, which advises the occupation authority, agrees that foreign troops will be needed to secure Iraq for the near future, said Hamed al-Bayati, a spokesman for council member Abdel Aziz al-Hakim.

But no treaty guarantees this hoped-for state of affairs. There is no Iraqi government to approve it.

"At this point, we'd be negotiating with ourselves, because we are the government," said a top U.S. military official in Baghdad, who also spoke on condition of anonymity. "This isn't a critical issue until we're no longer the Coalition Provisional Authority. But what happens when we hand over sovereignty?"

Whether the U.S. military gets the power it wants, remains to be seen.

Most Iraqis back a continued role for U.S. troops, but they're not likely to tolerate a foreign power in command of an Iraqi army, police, or even Iraqi prisoners, al-Bayati said.

"If we have a sovereign government, we can't put our forces under the command of another country's forces," he said.

The British official said some proposed treaty language would place Iraqi forces under Iraq's Ministry of Defense, which, in turn, "will agree to place them at the disposal of the multinational force."

The U.S. will keep jurisdiction over its own forces, of course, deciding whether to discipline soldiers for military excesses or acts that break Iraqi law, the U.S. official said.

"The good news is most Iraqi leaders know they need us," said Michael O'Hanlon, a military analyst with the Brookings Institution in Washington. "The Iraqis will have the choice to send us home at any time. But if they send us back, we're not necessarily coming back if things fall apart. They know this. Both sides must know it's an Iraqi decision to keep American forces there."

A treaty governing the status of foreign military forces was supposed to be negotiated this month but was postponed until after the handover, al-Bayati said. Governing Council members thought it too important to be done under the strictures of occupation, he said.

The emerging treaty could restrict U.S. firepower, a worrying possibility for commanders.

"All we want to make sure of is that the missions we are asked to perform are consistent with the commissions of what we are allowed to do," the U.S. official said, adding that the military wants to avoid criticisms of U.S. soldiers failing to act because they are not allowed to shoot.

Lawyers working for the occupation authority believe the legal basis for preserving U.S. command lies within the dictates of United Nations Security Council Resolution 1511, which authorizes a multinational force under a single command.

AP-ES-03-13-04 0945EST

Rascal @Who'sTheBoss.com