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Politics : Formerly About Advanced Micro Devices -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Tenchusatsu who wrote (185050)3/17/2004 7:27:58 PM
From: tejek  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 1578330
 
Ted, Better intel means catching terrorists before they blow something up.

How exactly do we do that? People are quick to associate the Madrid bombings with the Iraq war, but that answer dodges the more fundamental question of how we could have caught the bombers before the bombs went off. (Not only that, but that answer also led to Spain pulling out of Iraq, which most people agree is a victory for terrorism.)


The Germans and the Israelis catch people all the time before they do things. You have to be good at it. We aren't.

No one including the Europeans accepts the third choice.

Actually, Spain just did.


Of course, they don't and you know that as well as I do. Zapatero made clear that was not acceptable. Why ape the sour grapes of the right? There is a lesson to be learn in this mess that the right refuses to learn.

I suspect we will have to learn to live with number one [the JF choice], and at some point, when we get an enlightened president into power, do some of the stuff Z [choice number two] is talking about without the neocon's penchant for war. If we do the latter [Z's choice], the fears from number one should begin to ameliorate.

Learning to live with terrorism is not an easy thing to do. The chances of dying in an attack may be low, but the psychological impact is too real to ignore or deny, and the cost of cleaning up and rebuilding is substantial.


Then why are you not more outraged by the things that our gov't does to encourage attacks against us? And please don't tell me you think we are innocent; that the rest of the world is evil and we are the good little boys and girls.

OBL's goal has been to rid SA of its princes, not blow up the US. But no, we have to have bases all throughout the ME plus aircraft carriers plus God knows what else there.

Why couldn't we be happy with our bases in Turkey, Kuwait, Bahrain and Qatar? Why did we have to have two more in SA? Dang! How many bases do we need in the ME to protect our interests?

Why don't you ever question how screwed up and paranoid our gov't is instead of blaming the terrorists and Bush detractors for all our problems in the world?

Why is it not possible that Germany and France and now Spain know about what the hell they are talking? God knows they have had a lot more experience with the Islamic world than we have.

After all, it wasn't just the 3,000 lives who died in the WTC, but also the billions of dollars in cleanup, lost business, and general disruption due to the red alert and the grounding of all flights. And that's not even counting the billions of dollars spent in Afghanistan, Iraq, "homeland security," etc.

Yup, that's what our paranoia has wrought. When are you going to realize that at least some of it was a needless waste of money.....if not all of it?

ted



To: Tenchusatsu who wrote (185050)3/18/2004 1:51:10 PM
From: hmaly  Respond to of 1578330
 
Tench Re...Learning to live with terrorism is not an easy thing to do. The chances of dying in an attack may be low, but the psychological impact is too real to ignore or deny, and the cost of cleaning up and rebuilding is substantial. After all, it wasn't just the 3,000 lives who died in the WTC, but also the billions of dollars in cleanup, lost business, and general disruption due to the red alert and the grounding of all flights. And that's not even counting the billions of dollars spent in Afghanistan, Iraq, "homeland security," etc.

While the lefties want to claim, Iraq increased, rather than decreased terrorism, statistics seem to bear out Bush's side, as terrorism incidents dropped dramatically worldwide. Actually, if you link to the sites, you will see much better charts.

comw.org
Trends in the Incidence of International Terror Attacks on Americans After the Cold War
Project on Defense Alternatives Briefing Memo #29
Charles Knight and Melissa Murphy
26 June 2003

Introduction: This briefing memo addresses trends in the incidence of terror in the post-Cold War period by comparing the number of international terror attacks on American interests1 with the overall number of terror attacks worldwide. We present the data year by year and as three year moving averages. We use data from the U.S. Department of State2 which is frequently cited as authoritative and usefully summarizes annual statistics.

World Terrorist Attacks and Attacks Against American Interests with and without Attacks on the Colombian Oil Pipeline 1993-2002


Year Total World
Terrorist Attacks Total World
Terrorist Attacks
minus Colombian
Oil Pipeline Attacks Against
American Interests
(persons and objects) Attacks Against
American Interests
minus Colombian
Oil Pipeline
1993 427 397 88 58
1994 321 286 66 31
1995 440 380 99 39
1996 296 251 73 28
1997 304 219 110 25
1998 273 196 100 23
1999 392 301 169 78
2000 423 271 200 48
2001 346 168 228 50
2002 199 158 77 36

World Terrorist Attacks and Attacks Against American Interests with and without Attacks on the Colombian Oil Pipeline
3-year moving average
1995-2002



Year Total World
Terrorist Attacks Total World
Terrorist Attacks
minus Colombian
Oil Pipeline Attacks Against
American Interests
(persons and objects) Attacks Against
American Interests
minus Colombian
Oil Pipeline
1993-95 396 354 82 43
1994-96 352 305 79 33
1995-97 346 283 94 31
1996-98 291 222 94 25
1997-99 323 238 126 42
1998-00 362 256 156 50
1999-01 387 246 199 59
2000-02 322 199 168 44

Attacks Against American Interests as a Percentage of World Terrorist Attacks with and without Attacks on the Colombian Oil Pipeline
3-year moving average
1995-2002


Year Attacks Against American Interests as Percent of Total World Attacks Attacks Against American Interests minus Colombian Oil Pipeline as Percent of Total World Attacks minus Colombian Oil Pipeline
1993-95 20 12
1994-96 22 11
1995-97 27 11
1996-98 32 11
1997-99 39 18
1998-00 43 20
1999-01 51 24
2000-02 52 22

Notes:

1. We use the phrase "American interests" as a label of convenience to encompass the wide variety of types of attacks that are included in the data source (U.S. Department of State reports.) "Interests", in the sense we use it, refers to a limited set: specifically those objects of attack included in Department of State statistics. It should be noted that the use of "interests" in this sense is significantly different from the way diplomats and international relations scholars usually talk about American interests.

2. Patterns of Global Terrorism, annual 1993 - 2002, Washington, DC: U.S. Department of State,
URL: state.gov.

Among the types of attacks that are counted as "terrorist" by the Department of State are attacks on civilians (including hostage takings and kidnappings), assassinations, attacks on off-duty or unarmed military personnel, and attacks on objects of value to the U.S. and its commercial interests such as pipelines. The aggregation of so many different types of acts into one data set may obscure important differences, especially differences pertaining to the purposes and objectives of the attackers.

In order to explore what lies below the surface of the statistics we distributed to several sub-categories the 140 incidents listed in the Chronology of Significant Terrorist Incidents, 2002, itself a selection of the 199 total terrorist incidents reported in 2002. It should be noted that about half of the 59 incidents not included in the Chronology were sabotage attacks on the Colombian oil pipeline.

We found that 80% of the incidents in the Chronology appeared to be principally about a civil or intra-state conflict with their reported international aspects only coincidental. A majority of these involved the Kashmiri rebellion against Indian rule and the Palestinian rebellion against Israeli occupation. A table presenting our assignment of incidents to various categories follows. Because of either overlapping categories or ambiguous incident descriptions, some incidents have been assigned to two or more categories -- consequently percentages add up to more than 100%.

Chronology of Significant Terrorist Incidents, 2002 -- distributed

Number of incidents Percentage
Incidents in Chronology 140 100
Incidents with five or more deaths 28 20
In context of civil or intrastate conflict 112 80
Bombings or shootings targeting civilians 74 53
Bombings or shootings targeting officials 46 33
Kidnappings or hostage takings 9 6
Sabotage 6 4

Citation:
Charles Knight and Melissa Murphy, "Trends in the Incidence of International Terror Attacks on Americans After the Cold War", Cambridge, MA: Commonwealth Institute, Project on Defense Alternatives Briefing Memo #29, 26 June 2003.
comw.org;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And this link

db.mipt.org

Thst is a graphic link, and doesn't downlosd. However, if you look at it, you will see that terrorism dropped dramitically in 2003, in half in fact. Afghanistan, was in 2001-02, time frame, however Iraq war was in 03. While a lot of the drop probabley can be attributed to Afghanistan, the fact that the biggest drop came a yr later, during buildup to Iraq, and after the war, suggests that at least part of the dramtic drop, is due to Iraq.




For more information, please contact our Director of Research at 405.232.5121, research@mipt.org or simply click here.
GRAPHICAL SUMMARY

Selected Terrorist Organization: Selected Time Frame:
ALL 01/01/1997
to 03/18/2004

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Total
Incidents:9024 Total
Fatalities:11810 Total
Injuries:24343

Incidents Per Year
From 12/26/1997 To 11/19/2003

* Roll the mouse pointer over graph elements to view the data value
* Click on any graph element to drill-down for more details.