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Politics : Should God be replaced? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Greg or e who wrote (16772)	3/20/2004 3:19:34 AM
From: 2MAR$	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 28931

The question is not whether there were any other people with the name Jesus. well yes it plainly very much is part of the question greg , as my post to you here on "one Jesus or many" did plainly picture for you of many "strange coinicidence" , you very well know how histories get made over centuries in superstitious times of war and unheaval? And every tribe and city all over the region hoping for the arrival of a universal Savior , Jeshua? And each city or tribe had already had just so many of these Jeshuas in the past . Message 19929275 <<<<Jesus ben Saphat. In the insurrection of 68AD that wrought havoc in Galilee, this Jesus had led the rebels in Tiberias. When the city was about to fall to Vespasian’s legionaries he fled north to Tarichea on the Sea of Galilee. Too strange to be a coincidence! & <<<Jesus ben Gamala. During 68/69 AD this Jesus was a leader of the ‘peace party’ in the civil war wrecking Judaea. From the walls of Jerusalem he had remonstrated with the besieging Idumeans (led by ‘James and John, sons of Susa’). It did him no good. When the Idumeans breached the walls he was put to death and his body thrown to the dogs and carrion birds.>>>> & there WAS actually a Crucified Jesus Here <<<<Jesus ben Stada was a Judean agitator who gave the Romans a headache in the early years of the second century. He met his end in the town of Lydda (twenty five miles from Jerusalem) at the hands of a Roman crucifixion crew. And given the scale that Roman retribution could reach – at the height of the siege of Jerusalem the Romans were crucifying upwards of five hundred captives a day before the city walls – dead heroes called Jesus would (quite literally) have been thick on the ground. Not one merits a full-stop in the great universal history.

To: Greg or e who wrote (16772)	3/20/2004 3:42:11 AM
From: 2MAR$	Respond to of 28931

The question is, whether or not there is any reason to believe that Jesus of Nazareth, actually lived in Israel at the time that the biblical records claim Well once again , you will be finding many "Jeshua" figures down from Moses' day right into the Roman invasion and destruction to the diaspora . But you will be hard-pressed from a true historical basis of finding one that is shown to come from Nazereth. Now , for instance ask anyone who was read or has seen the plays of shakespear, and ask where Hamlet was from ...and anyone can tell you that he was from Denmark of course and did this and that thing ...does that make it real ? Certainly the plays and charactors of Shakespear have had the greatest force in shaping much of the english speaking world from their first writings , as did many of the Greek plays and well known stories had too , in the ancient world. Certainly this "Jeshua" liberator/savior/messiah figure gradually translates down into a newer model that becomes a more refined archetype of one who teaches moderation , austerity charity, social conscience , tolerance and universal acceptance of the equality of mens souls . And as men began to understand & better familiarize themselves with the "interior~landscape" of themselves and our own psyche's working , it stands to reason that this universal "Jeshua" figure also will transform in charactor and address the real issues everyman or woman faces in meeting the challenges of living ...and living with some better graces . Not men and women as beasts of burden and slaves , but free human beings , and free from tyranny. I'll leave the rest of the litany of the theological insertions of trinity , Holy Ghost , Hells heavens , Virgin Mothers of God , Angels , miracles , spirits of demons , resuusrections and belief that there were all these "wonderments" performed to cherish and populate your mind with . I do believe in feeding the multitudes , for instance ....for if you teach a man to fish , instead of just giving him a fish , he can feed himself forever ! Did Jesus say that to? ;-) (not so ancient really)

To: Greg or e who wrote (16772)	3/20/2004 4:01:16 AM
From: 2MAR$	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 28931

The claim that Craig put forward is really very modest well yes and no....i suppose wonderworker can be used as a way by historians to describe certain figures of history . Do you think it a logical and accurate chioce of words to use from that discipline of history to describe only certain chosen ones you are partial to? Would you describe Voltaire , Benjamin Franklyn , Ghandi or Albert Schweitzer wonderworkers too in the same context ? I think not because you have an obvious bias , and so does your Craig fellow . You see greg , the first messiah /hero figures with the Mosaic , Jeshua lineage ...were wonderworkers too . But they called down god's wrath , gave out commandments , sent plagues upon their enemies , slew the giants with slings and stones and jaw bones of the ass , etc. A very Herculean and older more simplistic version of the savior . And in the Jesus story , if one really wants to unwind the puzzle-story a bit more ...its simply the growing refininment of the archetypal hero figure (which is in all of us ) pointing the way to grace thru understanding on finer levels , the forces within ourselves , bestowed on us by nature ...and how to manage them in ourselves in the field of time. Soul is almost an inadequate word to describe the truth of the vast internet each of us really are. And any vast network needs to be maintained and managed, and so much of it is in us , thru nature, but nature also bestows on us an ever active psyche, which is the heart of all things ...the mind itself. If thought of heaven makes the picture of yours seem more complete , and offers hope fine . If doing charitable work of community service and pjilanthropy humanistic ventures of charity do so , that's also fine . But that was an uncommon thing I wuld supposewin the ancient world , frought with so much ignorance , tyranny , short lives and much pain & disease ...and the confusion that the masses of competing humanity was in those days , from Jew to Roman to Greek , Persian , Barbarian etc etc. And all of them , just like you had a certain set of beliefs and a cosmology, prejudice , fears and superstition. Are and were we then , just beginning growing up as a species in our own understanding of ourselves ? Yes I think so ...and the figure of a "Jesus" certainly may embody certain characteristics of the way to be in the world , and still maintain that higher grace of being. So , some Jesuses are just OK with me ... if the right Jesus is just ok with you ? ;-)