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Politics : Formerly About Advanced Micro Devices -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Mani1 who wrote (185531)	3/24/2004 3:24:36 PM
From: Road Walker	Respond to of 1571785

Mani, Wish I could have said it that well. John

To: Mani1 who wrote (185531)	3/24/2004 4:00:41 PM
From: i-node	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 1571785

It does not work if each killing breads more of the ones that you are trying to kill. I don't disagree with this statement at all. The Bush administration is dealing with this, in part, with the Iraq war -- which over time (10 years, maybe 20) bring abot a decline in the level of anti-Americanism. But at the same time we have to kill the existing terrorists who cannot, I think, be rehabilitated. Had we not undertaken to bring democracy to the entire region (which I think the democratization of Iraq will do over time) we would be fighting an endless war. By installing a democracy which will, over time, bring about dignity and reasonable ways of life in the region and killing off the current crop of terrorists, we can begin the process of bringing up a new generation who hasn't been brainwashed to become brutal cold blooded killers. I don't think either aspect of this war on terror can work without the other. You kill the insects, but you have to kill the eggs, too.

To: Mani1 who wrote (185531)	3/24/2004 4:51:05 PM
From: tejek	Respond to of 1571785

We are not arguing what is right and what is wrong. We are arguing what is the right course of action in response to what is wrong. And I believe the first step is to stop bad people from being created. Mani, well said. ted

To: Mani1 who wrote (185531)	3/24/2004 5:16:16 PM
From: Zeev Hed	Respond to of 1571785

What is the best course of action is really the major question. Before I address this, I should mention that we, the US, have in the last year established "new standards" of "acceptable international use of force". By carrying on a preemptive defensive strike on Iraq, having only a "perception of a clear and present danger", we have opened to door to many other nations in the world that feel threatened, in essence we lowered the bar for the justification of a "Defensive preemptive war". It used to be that an overt act of war or preparatory to war (like the closing of international waterways, or the amassing of massive forces on borders etc.) was required to justify such an act, not the perception that an adversary may sometime in the future have the means to inflict damage to our country. This will have repercussions far beyond the middle east and we have opened a pandora box by acting essentially unilaterally and without exhausting other means. see for instance a post of mine from before the war: investorshub.com and investorshub.com Unfortunately, the French with their "there is no security council resolution on the matter we will not veto, forced me to change my stance: investorshub.com. What is done, is done. As for what is the best course of action, there are two issues, what to do until a "negotiation partner" within the Palestinian Authority emerges and what to do after that. The first stage is the tough one, since any government has as one of its first priority to assure "law and order" in its lands, whether the disorder is from within or without is immaterial. During my last visit to Israel, I met with a gentleman who was responsible for interviewing Hammas activists that were going to be released from Israeli Jails after one of the many agreements in the last five years. He (lets call him Mr G) told me of an interview with a senior Hammas (lets call him Mr H) leader and the meeting was friendly, conducted in Arabic (that gentleman is fluent in Arabic). Toward the end of the "debriefing", Mr. G asked a simple question, what does Israel have to do in order for Hammas to accept its presence here and cease all these nonsensical mutual killing? Mr. H answer was quite simple, there is only one solution, dismantle the state of Israel and establish an Islamic republic in the "whole of Palestine", if you do not do it voluntarily, within 15 years we will do it for you. That tell the whole story of the extreme elements with the Palestinian population (and because of the last three year Intifada, my guess is that now instead of 5 to 10% of the population, probably more like 15% to 25% of the Palestinians hold that opinion). Maybe that is the "right solution", but it surely is not going to be accepted by any hegemonic state. So how does one deal with such a position, which is backed by schools (and Hammas is both a terrorist organization as well as a welfare organization that takes responsibility for feeding and teaching thousands of children in the territories, the only problem with that is what is taught) that vilify anything Israeli and glorify the commitment of suicide while killing as many of those "pigs" and "sons of monkeys" as possible? It seems that forcing separation might indeed be the right solution, despite the major downside of depriving many Palestinians who do not hold these tenets of the ability to earn a living in Israel (Israel instead is importing Phillipinos and Roumanians to fill many open positions), and thus help in the process of building a self sustaining society in the territories. I discussed many aspects of the "problems" both here and on I-hub in the last few years, a partial summary was give last January here: investorshub.com Zeev

To: Mani1 who wrote (185531)	3/26/2004 3:09:49 AM
From: Amy J	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1571785

Mani, RE: "They stay humans with human instinct and emotions that does not exclude hatred fueled by vengeance and hopelessness." It's truly amazing how otherwise extremely intelligent people, are rather clueless to how their military strategies are ineffective, simply because they do not address this core issue, you mention here. Spain voted their leader out and I believe Israel, or at least hightech Israeli's appear to be tired of Shannon's, "blow them up, piece by piece, leg by leg, arm by arm", that appears to beget more violence than peace. Shannon should either take over the country, build the country up to give the people hope, or he should back out and remove the settlements, which are a source of contention. His in-between approach is what appears to make Palestinians go wild with hopeless anger, as possibly evident by the Intel employee where apparently his Mom's house in Palestine was apparently being bombed every week. It's believed that triggered him. War should be quick, not long. I believe the world is tired of violence and the leaders who beget violence. I think Bush will be voted out, along with Shannon. I hope the Japanese leader remains when it's their election time, because he seems to be one of the more reasonable leaders in the world. Regards, Amy J