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Politics : Libertarian Discussion Forum -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Raymond Duray who wrote (5612)3/27/2004 9:07:45 AM
From: BubbaFred  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 13060
 
<<Unions are the one institution more responsible than any other for creating the phenomenally large middle class that America is so proud of. >>

Ray - I must add the following. First I must state that I am not a big die hard fan of unions as many of them have become elitists and corrupt with inbred membership. Nevertheless I have an overall appreciation for what they have accomplished, not just for the workers, both white and blue, but also for the society.

Those people who don't appreciate unions, they should read The Grapes of Wrath. It's a classic. Hopefully they get more in-depth meaning and wisdom than just reading the words.

I am really surprised that many people don't realize the impact that unions have had on Americana. Many of them love reaping the benefits of many decades of what unions have accomplished for American workers whick made it possible the sharing of the created wealth. Moreover, it creates larger and greater wealth as it is spread over the society.

What would be like without unions? Get injured on the job, and cannot perform job duties? No sweat! The boss would say, Go to work tomorrow, but don't come here. Go to work looking for another job. No recourse, no complaint, no nothing. One only needs to see or experience working in one of the third or second world countries in Asia or South America and see how the majority toils.

And the benefits are not just for the blue color workers. White collar workers get priviledges that the blue collar workers got through their unions. Otherwise, same story for white collars. Two years to retirement benefits? Heck, that's time to get fired. Yep, without unions there would be lots of enronized retirees and perhaps they would be the lucky ones, even to get a nickle back of what they put in. Most won't have pension at all. They have to save on their own for their retirements. Guess how many can afford to save or even know how to do so?



To: Raymond Duray who wrote (5612)3/31/2004 9:32:13 PM
From: Lazarus_Long  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 13060
 
Your view matches perfectly with the narrow smallminded small town main street merchant determined to keep a larger, more efficient chain from moving in on its turf. This battle has been going on all my life. Fortunately, your side has been steadily losing.

What of the poor suckers who have to pay inflated prices for the overprpiced goods those pinheads sell them? I have yet to hear of anyone from Walmart, Sears, .... or any other large chain using a gun to force their customers to buy from them.

Or even an ordinance. That's the specialty of the slugs on your side.



To: Raymond Duray who wrote (5612)4/1/2004 9:16:47 AM
From: LPS5  Respond to of 13060
 
WRONG! This tired and silly analysis deserves to die an unhappy death.

Whenever someone suggests that a certain variety or line of analysis needs to be discarded out of hand, unquestioningly...well, the skeptic* in me suspects there's something to it. At least, that it needs to be examined more closely.

Strikes result in a loss of revenue to employers, and depending upon the nature and duration of a strike, may result in a loss of market share. In addition, during strikes employees lose wages, profit sharing/incentive plans are impacted, and if market share is lost, future job growth is hindered.

Outside of the strike scenario, in various industries unions enjoy monopoly power whereby through the threat of strike and/or a restriction of the supply of workers (barriers to entry including licensure, apprenticeships, application for union cards, etc.), the supply/demand effect pushes wages up.

I'm not saying that I'm against unions - not at all. I've personally been a member of two unions in the past, and feel that they fall well within the right - a Constitutional right, no less - to assemble, freely associate, and all that. However, and among other things: I'm averse to the coercive influence that they operate with. In many workplaces, and as was my experience in one such union, there is no provision for new employees to opt out.

It's interesting - and, I confess, intellectually satisfying - to be scolded by a shop steward for even suggesting that you might not want to join the union, with the attendant line of reasoning that to reject membership is to allow a party to exert control over you. LOL!

But to suggest that unions don't impact the overhead on goods and services is laughable. 'Tired and silly,' indeed.

LPS5

_____

*Incidentally, that's real skepticism: not the bastardized type that, while not skepticism at all, surfaces regularly on SI under that moniker. It employs something akin to the inversion of Occam's Razor whereby only the most outlandish, politically expedient explanations are selected and, in the final stage, its purveyors handpick disparate information and sources to support them.



To: Raymond Duray who wrote (5612)4/1/2004 12:25:01 PM
From: Dan B.  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 13060
 
"Re: "Well you're right that unions in general add costs to everything we buy."
WRONG! This tired and silly analysis deserves to die an unhappy death."

Putting it simply, you can't kill what is plainly and necessarily true. Wealth and purchasing power for workers is reflected in the prices of goods we buy. DUH! Why oh why you can't understand simple arithmetic is beyond me, and it certainly seems to lead you into flights of socialist fancy, IMO. Better read some of James Bowers's posts here, to learn what Wal-Mart really means for common folks.

Dan B.



To: Raymond Duray who wrote (5612)4/1/2004 2:33:19 PM
From: Dan B.  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 13060
 
And Ray, be sure to read LPS5's response to my prior response here, and think about consequences of the coercive control Unions take and use (unconstitutionally, IMO). Then, tell us if you will why we should ignore it when we believe in a free society.

Dan B.



To: Raymond Duray who wrote (5612)4/2/2004 11:17:30 AM
From: LPS5  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 13060
 
Wal-Mart Haters Miss the Big Picture

by Steven Greenhut
LewRockwell.com
March 31, 2004

Even those readers who are unfamiliar with Southern California have probably heard of Inglewood. The crime-ridden, drug-infested, gang-laden cesspool of a city just outside the Los Angeles city limits is nationally known thanks to rap music lyrics, a murder of a prominent rap performer and a 2002 videotape of a cop beating the pulp out of a 16-year-old black kid.

If you fly into LAX and take a wrong turn in that rental car and end up there, be sure to roll up the windows and lock the doors – especially if you are stuck at a red light beside a slammed Lincoln Navigator, the vehicle of choice of drug dealers and gang-bangers.

Yet, to hear most Inglewood city officials describe it, the city’s anarchic atmosphere is not the biggest threat to residents. The real threat, in the view of religious leaders, council members, union leaders and community activists, comes from the Arkansas-based retailer, Wal-Mart. Officials could not be counted on to approve a plan to open up a Wal-Mart on a vacant lot next to a racetrack, so the company has put its plans to a ballot next week.

Only the city’s mayor, Roosevelt Dorn, had the sense to stand up for a company that promises hundreds of jobs, hundreds of thousands of dollars in annual sales tax revenue to the city, and – most important, perhaps, to low-income residents – low-priced goods and, eventually, low-cost food if it blossoms into a Supercenter.

One council member told a radio station that Wal-Mart’s plan is the equivalent of slavery. Somehow, opening a store and offering products and jobs in a relatively free market is the same thing as coercively binding people in chains and owning them as property. What explains such willful ignorance? The unions, which fear competition from companies that offer market wages, are stoking the fires.

So is the Los Angeles Times. In a column on Thursday, Pat Morrison makes fun of the "good ol’ billionaires in Bentonville, Ark. – and their good ol’ lawyers and accountants. They’re sitting back there in their Ozark offices right now, counting their money and laughing to beat the band. At you.

"Get a load of that Inglewood, they must be saying – ready to sell its birthright to us for a mess of pottage."

It’s OK, of course, for liberal columnists to shamelessly exploit racial stereotyping by trying to get an overwhelmingly black and Latino city riled at the rednecks from Arkansas who are trying to take their birthright. Real clever, huh?

Morrison is furious that Wal-Mart would go around the left-wing council and appeal directly to residents. Residents, you see, are selling their "right to representative democracy" in exchange for "cheap DVD players, buy-one-get-one-free boot-cut jeans, a half-price Barbie dream house." Yes, yes, I’m sure Morrison would never shop for cheap electronics goods, and she certainly wouldn’t be caught dead with boot-cut jeans or a half-price Barbie dream house.

It’s so easy to make fun of people who, supposedly, want to trade their souls for cheap goods. Of course, no one really is trading their souls for such goods. Most of us, liberal elites such as Morrison included, typically stretch our dollars any way we can. There’s no crime in that. It’s honorable when companies try to outdo each other with higher quality and lower prices, which is the opposite of what government does. Yet the Left always wants to give government more power, more of our money taken by force, and more moral credibility.

The Left, and some quarters of the Right, always want to demonize corporations that, last time I checked, never put a gun to anyone’s head to make them shop or work there. In their world, we should all pay twice as much for lower-quality, American-made goods, just so their union buddies can earn big bucks and be free to treat customers shabbily and influence the political process with their forcibly taken union dues.

No thanks.

Ironically, Inglewood council members are arguing that Wal-Mart will take business from local stores. That’s a hard case to make in a vast urban area that often resembles an endless strip mall. It’s not as if this is some small town, where Wal-Mart is coming in and offering something that is not already widely available.

Even in small towns, it is bogus to suggest that Wal-Mart should be kept out to protect downtown merchants. When I lived in a small town, the downtown pharmacist was open at hours that suited him, not at hours that were convenient to customers. Sometimes I would find on the door a sign saying, "Will be back soon." Is soon an hour or 15 minutes? I have no desire to protect these sorts of businesses. When the big home improvement center opened outside town, I no longer had to pay $30 a gallon for paint in a dirty downtown hardware store run by surly owners.

Let’s not romanticize what downtown merchants often are like.

That said, I personally dislike Wal-Mart for two reasons.

No. 1 is personal. I hate the crowds. The stores are bleak. I like to shop at places that have a certain surprise factor. Like at the discount furniture store, IKEA, where you’ll find all sorts of fun and weird things you never expected to find. Those Swedes might have a socialist ethic, but they certainly understand a thing or two about design and merchandising. Even Target is cleaner and more interesting than Wal-Mart.

But, so what? We’re all free to shop where we choose. For certain mundane items, despite the unpleasantness of the shopping experience, I always go to Wal-Mart because of the low prices.

No. 2 is far more significant. Wal-Mart executives not only take subsidies from cities that desperately want the stores to locate in their midst, but they sometimes let cities use eminent domain on their behalf. Other retailers, especially Costco, do the same thing. A recent Colorado Supreme Court decision overturned a plan to condemn a private lake and fill in part of it to make way for a Wal-Mart.

Costco worked hand-in-hand with the city of Cypress, Calif., to try to use eminent domain to take a property owned by a church so that it can be transferred to the discount retailer. The transfer was called a "public" use because the public would supposedly benefit from the additional tax revenues Costco would pay. In that worldview – a fairly common one, I might add – there is no such thing as private property rights. As long as the government can find a use that pays more taxes than the current use, then it is, by definition, a "public" use. Some courts have reined in these abuses, while others have allowed them. My first book, due at the stores in June, is about the misuse of eminent domain on behalf of private corporations.

Here’s where some distinctions are important, yet an economically illiterate public seems unable to make them. I’ve even had a long discussion recently with a prominent business executive who simply could not grasp the distinctions I am making.

To him, and many others, one is either pro-business or anti-business. But the readers of this Web site are not pro-business. We are pro-freedom, pro-markets.

That means that when Wal-Mart wants to open a store on its own private property in Inglewood, then it should be free to do so. It should be free to offer whatever wages it wants, hire whomever it chooses and sell whatever goods at whatever prices it chooses. The market, i.e., buyers, will decide whether Wal-Mart offers fair deals. This should not be left to a bunch of morons on a city council.


But it also means that taxpayers shouldn’t be forced to subsidize Wal-Mart. It also means that city officials, seeking the vast sales taxes that Wal-Mart offers, should not abuse their powers to take privately owned land on behalf of a greedy corporation. (Greedy is a correct term when we are talking about corporations seeking the abuse of government power on their behalf.)

To LRC readers, this is a fundamental and obvious principle. To the LA Times and the Inglewood City Council it’s about slavery and birthrights and who knows what else. Perhaps we can teach them what we mean. If only we could, say, ban the kind of stores they like, or, bulldoze their houses and businesses to make way for the kind of businesses we prefer. Maybe then they would understand the value of freedom.

We won’t do that, of course. We’re too principled and powerless.

lewrockwell.com