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To: Thomas M. who wrote (8917)	3/30/2004 5:20:43 PM
From: rrufff	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 20773

Now I understand - your hero is Martin Luther, one of history's worst bigots. Well, thanks to the Hellenic reforms of the New Testament, the Pharisees were circumvented. But I wouldn't "admire" the minority that avoided the reforms, just as I don't admire the people who rejected Martin Luther's call to reform the Catholic Church. Here's some more you should enjoy. us-israel.org Martin Luther: The Jews and Their Lies (1543) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At the beginning of his career, Luther was apparently sympathetic to Jewish resistance to the Catholic Church. He wrote, early in his career: The Jews are blood-relations of our Lord; if it were proper to boast of flesh and blood, the Jews belong more to Christ than we. I beg, therefore, my dear Papist, if you become tired of abusing me as a heretic, that you begin to revile me as a Jew. But Luther expected them to convert to his purified Christianity. When they did not, he turned violently against Jews. It is impossible for modern people to read the horrible passages below and not to think of the burning of synagogues in November 1938 on Kristallnacht. Nor would one wish to excuse Luther for this text. A number of points must, however, be made. The most important concerns the language used. Luther used violent and vulgar language throughout his career....We do not expect religious figures to use this sort of language in the modern world, but it was not uncommon in the early 16th century. Second, although Luther's comments seem to be proto-Nazi, they are better seen as part of tradition of Medieval Christian anti-Semitism. While there is little doubt that Christian anti-Semitism laid the social and cultural basis for modern anti-Semitism, modern anti-Semitism does differ in being based on pseudo-scientific notions of race. The Nazis imprisoned and killed Jews who had converted to Christianity: Luther would have welcomed them. None of this justifies what follows, but it may help to comprehend what is happening. In 1994, the Church Council of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America rejected Luther's anti-Semitic writings. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin Luther: The Jews and Their Lies (extracts) I had made up my mind to write no more either about the Jews or against them. But since I learned that these miserable and accursed people do not cease to lure to themselves even us, that is, the Christians, I have published this little book, so that I might be found among those who opposed such poisonous activities of the Jews who warned the Christians to be on their guard against them. I would not have believed that a Christian could be duped by the Jews into taking their exile and wretchedness upon himself. However, the devil is the god of the world, and wherever God's word is absent he has an easy task, not only with the weak but also with the strong. May God help us. Amen. * He did not call them Abraham's children, but a "brood of vipers" [Matt. 3:7]. Oh, that was too insulting for the noble blood and race of Israel, and they declared, "He has a demon' [Matt 11:18]. Our Lord also calls them a "brood of vipers"; furthermore in John 8 [:39,44] he states: "If you were Abraham's children ye would do what Abraham did.... You are of your father the devil. It was intolerable to them to hear that they were not Abraham's but the devil's children, nor can they bear to hear this today. * Therefore the blind Jews are truly stupid fools...

To: Thomas M. who wrote (8917)	3/31/2004 4:08:06 AM
From: zonder	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 20773

The Church was never as oppressive as the rabbinical rulers of the Middle Ages. I don't know anything about "rabbinical rulers" but feel you will tell me :-) But having read quite a bit about the witch hunts, the methods of the Inquisition (ex: the ridiculous "trial" and two year torture of the Templar Knights followed by their burning at the stake), and having seen several exhibitions of their torture apparatus, if there is anything worse than the Church of the Middle Ages, I don't want to know about it.

To: Thomas M. who wrote (8917)	3/31/2004 4:58:27 AM
From: Raymond Duray	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 20773

Hi Thomas, Re: The Church was never as oppressive as the rabbinical rulers of the Middle Ages. Let me echo zonder here. I haven't heard this history. Any place for me to start a search on this subject matter?