Are you aware that Pat Buchanan is on record stating that he feels that Richard Nixon had more character than John Kerry.
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MATTHEWS: Pat Buchanan was in the Nixon White House back in ‘71.
He‘s now an MSNBC contributor.
You know all about this. Tell me your memories of the Nixon attitude toward this young Vietnam veteran.
PAT BUCHANAN, FORMER NIXON SPEECHWRITER: Well, we had a number demonstrations, Chris, some of them very huge. This was a relatively small group, but because they were veterans, you had to deal with them with kid gloves. At least I felt so.
And there was only about 1,000 of them but they were down on the mall. And so we went through the court process and got an injunction. They were to get off the mall. And so I sent a memo. That memo I think you‘ve got over there.
MATTHEWS: Yes. You said, “I trust we‘re not going to use force to throw them out if they refuse to go. They‘re getting tremendous publicity. They have an articulate spokesman,” him.
BUCHANAN: Right.
MATTHEWS: “And they are being received in a far more sympathetic fashion than other demonstrators.”
BUCHANAN: Well, sure. These were veterans. And so we treated them differently. And my feeling was that you let them go ahead, hold their demonstrations, give their speeches and leave town.
The week following, you had those May Day demonstrator who weren‘t demonstrator, who trashed Georgetown, who rolled the logs down on Canal Road, put barrels in the street. These were a different group, as I point out.
There had been a horrible mistake under Hoover with the Bonus Army, which came in after World War I and during the Depression and demanded their bonus. And Hoover called the Pentagon and General MacArthur and Colonel Patton came riding up Pennsylvania Avenue.
MATTHEWS: On horseback.
BUCHANAN: On horseback and drove them...
MATTHEWS: Let me talk about the way—first of all, what did you think about John Kerry back then? Who did you think he was?
BUCHANAN: I thought he was a very extremely articulate veteran.
There‘s no doubt about it. You can see it there. He was very impressive.
But I thought then and I think now, the idea of throwing those medals over the fence was awful. And frankly, the idea of calling the American soldiers and they‘re war criminals, and basically mad dogs in Vietnam, which he did was an outrage.
And the reason was, I mean, a lot of us knew the guys over there. And that simply was a lie. It was not true.
MATTHEWS: What do you think was his motive? I mean, you‘re a political guy. Even as a journalist, you‘re a political guy. What do you think was he up to?
Running for office—We heard Colson on that tape. Charles Colson, the president‘s counselor, was saying this guy‘s going to run for office. That was pretty prescient. I‘m sure Chuck would enjoy hearing that, his voice again, now.
BUCHANAN: Well, I think we all did, frankly.
MATTHEWS: You thought he was a power, right?
BUCHANAN: No, no. Here‘s the thing. He‘s a very articulate guy.
He‘s fought in Vietnam. He comes back. The elites in the country have turned against the war...
MATTHEWS: Right.
BUCHANAN: ... because Nixon inherited the war.
The “Washington Post” and all the others that led us in there are now against it. He‘s going to step out and be the young leader of this as a veteran. I think he went a bridge too far with those awful charges.
And you saw that fellow, John O‘Neill. That is perfectly legitimate to do. We needed an articulate veteran to stand up to him. And as you can see, Chris, the president doesn‘t hesitate to bring them into the Oval Office and basically give them a presidential benediction and say this fellow represents the other side of this war, the guys who are still there.
MATTHEWS: Do you think he still tends to see the other side of an argument as evil? I mean, we have a president who does that as well. For example, the liars and crooks comment of the last week. Do you think that is the same overstatement, overkill, that he sold back then?
BUCHANAN: I do. And I wrote a piece for “Human Events.” I saw them night he did very well...
MATTHEWS: Speaking of overkill.
BUCHANAN: In Wisconsin, he gets up and says, “I stood up against Nixon‘s war.” That is a lie. When Nixon left as V.P., there were 600 guys in Vietnam. When we came in in 1969, there were 535,000, and 33,000 dead.
It was Johnson‘s war.
MATTHEWS: Right.
BUCHANAN: And Kennedy‘s war. And liberalism‘s war. But he wouldn‘t say that. He said it‘s Nixon‘s war, although Nixon started removing troops almost from the day he took office.
MATTHEWS: Why do you think the American liberal establishment turned so anti-war after their president had left office in ‘68 when they had been pro -war?
BUCHANAN: One reason is they hated Richard Nixon. Nixon had won. They thought he was an illegitimate president. They wanted him defeated and humiliated.
And I‘ll tell you this. One of the motives behind Watergate is, in 1973, people forget, every single provincial capital was in South Vietnamese hands. North Vietnam was whipped. We had mined and blockaded. The POW‘s were coming home.
Nixon had won the war they couldn‘t win and they couldn‘t end. Their hatred of Nixon knew no bounds. And when Nixon stumbled in Watergate, they finished him off.
MATTHEWS: I always thought the war was the real reason for Watergate, the whole fight over...
BUCHANAN: The hatred of Nixon goes right to the war.
MATTHEWS: What is your sense, if you can step back from this, ideologically, for three seconds of John Kerry. All these years of development. This guy has been running for president, it seems to me, for a long time. Colson was right, I think.
NIXON: I think there‘s a lot of Bill Clinton, in a sense. Clinton at 15 years old was looking at the presidency of the United States.
I think he was opportunistic, but there‘s no doubt he served bravely in Vietnam. And there‘s nothing wrong with wanting to be president as a young man. I just think he really ought to apologize for what he said about his comrades who served and died and only a tiny few of whom committed the crimes he talks about.
MATTHEWS: Percentage wise, what percentage of John Kerry is a man of the left and what percentage is a man of opportunity?
BUCHANAN: I think that Kerry is a...
MATTHEWS: Is he a left?
BUCHANAN: He‘s a lefty. He‘s a left, and I think he‘s an authentic lefty. But I do think he is a bit of an opportunist, frankly. I mean, look at how he moves on the trade issue and things like that.
But there‘s—Again, there‘s nothing wrong with a politician saying, look, the country has moved this way. That‘s not working. Let‘s try this. But I think he is basically authentically of the left, but he sees where the main chance is.
MATTHEWS: Who was the man of greater character? Richard Nixon or John Kerry?
BUCHANAN: I think Nixon was a man of great personal character. I think he was a man of flaws but he hung right in there to the end.
MATTHEWS: And Kerry is a man of flaws or a man of bad character with some positives?
BUCHANAN: Well, I wish Kerry would stand up and say, that look, “I shouldn‘t have said that about these guys.” He knows he shouldn‘t have said that.
MATTHEWS: Yes. I haven‘t heard him say that.
BUCHANAN: Why doesn‘t he just say it?
MATTHEWS: The idea of atrocities, and “we all participated in atrocities.” I don‘t think that would sell too well right now.
BUCHANAN: Why doesn‘t he say, “Look, I was angry. I was against the war. I said some things I shouldn‘t have. They were honorable guys, but I was right to oppose the war.” And many would say fine.
MATTHEWS: A lot of politicians including Richard Nixon would be better off if they could apologize.
Anyway, thank you very much, Patrick J. Buchanan, my colleague here at MSNBC. |
