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Politics : Politics for Pros- moderated -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Lane3 who wrote (39000)	4/11/2004 4:37:20 PM
From: Nadine Carroll	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 793841

Sure, Islam isn't as far along. But different? I don't see it. Hey, what's 500 years developmental difference, and damn little progress in the last 200 years? You take a very long viewpoint here. I don't think the rest of us can wait centuries for improvement.

To: Lane3 who wrote (39000)	4/11/2004 5:03:30 PM
From: gamesmistress	Respond to of 793841

What made Christians change? I guess I should say "start to change" because the change still has a way to go. It's the change in the role of the Catholic Church (mother church of all Christianity in Europe) that was significant, not the nature of its doctrines or rituals per se. The Church occupied a powerful role for centuries and acted as a consistent, stabilizing, civilizing and educative force. The Church became corrupt and was challenged by other forces, but it didn't change until it had to, and the social, economic and political upheaval was enormous. I wouldn't expect much less in the Middle East, unfortunately. You talk about not being able to own property in PA when you got married, but it didn't take a revolution for that to change. It will in the Middle East.

To: Lane3 who wrote (39000)	4/12/2004 5:23:54 AM
From: frankw1900	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 793841

What made Christians change? Black Death. Secularism. The transfer of shame apportionment from individuals to sherrifs and courts. Churches had to follow. I see no reason which is objective that suggests Muslims have to take centuries to get to a reformation or enlightenment. The problem is that the religion has been used to ideologize murder and robbery. This started about a thousand years ago when Muslims, mostly Arab ones, successfully destroyed their own enlightemment - "faith trumps reason." Take any significant part of the Arab world, disallow murder and robbery as standardized behaviour and the religion there will follow. As Iraq illustrates, this is not an easy task but it's not impossible. Right now, most Muslim societies, not all, are the weakest they've ever been in their history, and this through their own actions, while at the same time rival societies have become stronger - this is their "major catastrophe" that is mentioned: I think they are going to change.... After a major catastrophe. If the salient difference between them and us is the pride/shame thing, then it's not the religion thing in which chase you should be directing your comments at Arabs rather than Muslims. You have the same kind of problem in Pakistan, and Iran has been moving in that direction as the Mullahs re-instutionalize murder and robbery - but again it's not the religion it's the retrograde ideology which has seized the religion as vehicle.