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Politics : Don't Blame Me, I Voted For Kerry -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: cnyndwllr who wrote (14434)4/13/2004 1:52:13 PM
From: Kenneth E. PhillippsRespond to of 81568
 
The train has left the station!



To: cnyndwllr who wrote (14434)4/13/2004 3:03:14 PM
From: OrcastraiterRead Replies (1) | Respond to of 81568
 
A second disagreement I have is with the implicit assumption that the Iraqi people would select democracy as their form of government. I think it's clear that the majority of the Iraqis will prefer whatever form of government that their clerics tell them to prefer. Whatever you want to call that, I call that a theocracy. If you put democracy vs. faith to a vote in Iraq, I pity democracy.

Canyon,
I think the Iraqi people should select the type of government that they want. In effect that would be a democracy even if they choose a theocracy. But let it be of their choosing. My only fear about a theocracy is that if it becomes a hard line institution such as the kind of theocracy they have in Iran, that the people may not be able to effect change at a ballot box once theocracy is chosen.

None the less it's their decision to make. If they choose that kind of government it will be up to them to change it later if things don't work out. Who the hell are we to tell another people how to govern themselves?

After decades of cold war, it appears that the FSU and now even China will find their own way to democracy. No war required.

Nations discover soon enough that it's more advantageous to be a part of the world community. And that a democracy will attract more bright people as well as capital critical for investment and betterment of the people. Saddam discovered that being a bad boy cost him and his people dearly, and that was his conclusion well before the invasion. The sanctions clearly hurt Saddam and the Iraqi people.

So here it is. On June 30th we let Iraq take over. Let them hold elections, and if they choose theocracy so be it. The US if they stay in Iraq should be joined by an international peace keeping force whose job would be to act as a police force for the government of Iraq, as the Iraqi forces take their place on a schedule to be clearly defined.

After the last peace keepers leave, Iraq will be like a glider airplane...now released...to be piloted by the Iraqi people.

Orca



To: cnyndwllr who wrote (14434)4/14/2004 7:40:35 AM
From: Chas.Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 81568
 
canyonman, something to ponder......please read & comment, thanks, Chucky.

Fighting the con game
By BARRY RUBIN

Behind the scenes of the apparently deteriorating situation in Iraq are clues revealing the region's most basic problems.

For example, the intensive battles between Shi'ite forces and occupation troops take place on the eve of the turnover of power to an interim government and elections. Why is this happening now, when ambitious Iraqi politicians could simply wait for foreigners to get into office?

Ostensibly, fighting began over a plan to arrest Sadr, the thuggish son of a great Shi'ite hero murdered by dictator Saddam Hussein a quarter-century ago. Yet for Sadr, his Iranian sponsors, and the Sunni Muslim terrorists supporting either Islamist revolution or a return of Saddam Hussein, the goal is to sabotage progress. If a new regime establishes itself this could end forever their hopes of seizing the country or continuing the struggle for total victory. If the foreigners leave, they lose their best scapegoat, those against whom they can mobilize hysterical mass hatred.

In short, the Iraq situation roughly parallels that of the Israel-Palestinian conflict in 2000. An imminent solution would benefit Arabs. But implementation – with an Israeli withdrawal, peace and a Palestinian state; a democratic Iraq and Anglo-American withdrawal – would destroy the militants their ambitions and ideological agenda. Toward this end, they are ready to wreck their societies, suffer huge number of casualties, and delay a solution by many years.

Of course, they have an alternative strategy available in both the Palestinian and Iraqi cases: Play along, make a deal, get the foreigners out, and then go for power. Arafat could easily have signed a treaty, gotten a Palestinian state, and then worked on the next stage of eliminating Israel entirely.

But this is not so attractive, for several reasons. Once the situation is stabilized it is harder to stir up passions for battle. If the situation of your people improves materially, they may not want to fight on and sacrifice the material gains they have made.

Moreover, the scapegoat of "occupation" will be lost, while their people might believe in the good intentions of Americans or Israelis rather than demonize them. Suicide bombers are not going to be recruited under such circumstances.

Finally, there is the international scene to consider. Launching a war, using terrorism and then playing the victim has worked very well for Yasser Arafat. As co-author of a recent biography of Arafat I know very well that it is impermissible in American journalistic and intellectual circles to say he was to blame for the peace process's collapse by employing a strategy of terrorism. In Europe and elsewhere the situation is far worse.

THE BROADER point is to explain why so many Western and Israeli schemes to fix the Middle East fail and even make things worse. These may include the Oslo peace process, withdrawal from south Lebanon, promoting democracy, regime change in Iraq, paying off Iran not to build nuclear weapons, stopping international terrorism by solving the Arab-Israeli conflict, and many other ideas produced daily in op-ed pieces.

Here's what they have in common:

They make concessions to prove that the West or Israel want to alleviate Arab or Muslim grievances. But this effort is misinterpreted as weakness (inviting more militancy), foolishness (encouraging trickery), or an evil plot (fostering additional antagonism).

They create a process which provides benefits, thus encouraging the other side to fulfill its commitments and see the outcome as attractive. But this produces a period in which the militants can complain that they have not yet gotten the desired outcome, while ridiculing the benefits as nonexistent. By turning to violence (or breaking their promises) they can subvert the benefits and extend the timetable, thus having a cause for carrying on their battle under better conditions for themselves.

They overestimate moderates and the appeal of material benefits. The peacemakers believe that those who want to end the conflict – a "silent minority" – can restrain the militants. Yet perhaps this "silent minority" is unarmed.
Using religious, nationalist, and xenophobic appeals, activists can stir up the people against their own material interests. Moreover, leaders care nothing about the material well-being of their people, worrying that in a post-conflict situation they will either lose power or never gain it. They subvert the process – and who is going to stop them?

They use appeasement and self-blame to keep the process going. Since would-be peacemaking politicians have a greater political stake in the process than their opponents, as the situation deteriorates they (or their successors) are tempted to offer more concessions and blame victims instead of the perpetrators. If extremists resort to terrorism this "proves" that the American, Spanish, or Israeli government is following wrong policies, and should be replaced.
Sadr and other Iraqi radicals are thus resorting to policies which have worked up to a point for Arafat, Hizbullah, Iran, and Syria, among others.

To wreck, lie, stall, bully, and subvert is a way to retain power and popularity, even if it does not produce total victory. Understanding and rejecting this con game is as important as fighting its practitioners.