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Politics : Stockman Scott's Political Debate Porch -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Suma who wrote (42858)	4/16/2004 12:21:30 PM
From: Lazarus_Long	Respond to of 89467

And then there's the suicide..a human being becoming a bomb..I am afraid I could not live in Israel... I would doubt your sanity if you said you wanted to. That sort of thing is a daily occurrence there. However, for me to equate the subversive and out of nowhere terror attacks with war is like living with Peral Harbor. A sudden an unexpected attack. I prefer it front and center. It appears that's where we are now and will be for a while. It will take a combination of things to straighten matters out- -military action, diplomacy, aid. But simply ignoring 911 or trying to talk your way out of it isn't an option. You mark yourself as a free target if you do that and you can expect more of the same. If you show them that they will pay a high price if they do it, it acts as a deterrent. The next Taliban style gov't that allows al Qaeda style terrorists to use its soil knows it risks extinction. A bit about those extremist on the other side. This is from some PMs I recently sent to another person about a trip to Saudi Arabia. ============================================================ I'm not religious, but I figure people can believe what they wish as long as they leave me alone and don't hurt anyone else. Islam has this thing, though, where it just can't do that. The attitude often seems "Our way or none". For example: Atheism is punishable by death. Converting a Muslim to another religion is punishable by death. The former Muslim is also executed. Adultery is punishable by death (in theory for both sexes, although women seem to get it a lot more). I was in Saudi in the early '90s. STRANGE country. Alcohol is forbidden, although common in the Western compounds. Possession of materials from religions other than Islam is forbidden. The practice of other religions is forbidden. On the streets of Riyadh, the capital, you see about 1/10 as many women as in this or other Western countries. They are kept locked away. Buses have a steel partition running crossways down the middle; women must sit in the back. In restaurants, there is a family section and a separate women's section. Women are not allowed to work at jobs where they might come into contact with men, even accidentally. Male doctors can't physically examine women; the women simply describe their symptoms to them. In the hotel I was staying in, you'd see a Saudi man walk out of a room trailed by these 4 little things covered completely in black- -his 4 wives. This in temps that went over 130 outside. Public executions are carried out in the main square in Riyadh. Lots of "crimes" get a death penalty there. The headsman sticks the victim with the sword; his head jerks up; slash. Cops force people around the square to watch; you can't look away. Deterrence in action. They have religious police there, separate from the civil police, to punish religious crimes such as women not wearing veils or men not doing the 5-times-a-day prayer thing. All male residents must be practicing Muslims. I was staying in a Hilton and whenever they could, they got lax about things. They were commonly raided by the religious police. Not a country I care to go back to. (Oh, yeah. There are no tourist visas, so you can't just decide to visit. You have to be either a Muslim going there on Hajj (that once-in-a-lifetime visit to Mecca) or be invited to come by a Saudi. I was invited by the head of Arabsat [the communications satellite consortium run by the Arab League], a Saudi. I was also in Tunisia, which is a former French colony and has a lot of French influence. I was working at an Arabsat ground station for the Arab League's communications satellite and there were Arabs there from all over. They were pissed at the Tunisian men because they didn't make their women toe the line. They were afraid such permissiveness and slack would spread to their countries. The country, the gov't, and the laws are screwed up almost beyond redemption. Oh, the slaves. There are three classes of people in Saudi: the Saudis, who are gentlemen who supervise things and never get their hands dirty actually DOING something, Westerners who aren't as good as the Saudis but can approach that level, and the slaves. The slaves are Muslims from other countries brought in to do the hard dirty work. They are flown in by the 747 full. Paks, Indonesians, Afghans, wherever cheap Muslims are. They dig holes and break rocks out in that 130 heat while we educated Westerners are inside the air conditioned buildings making the hardware and software work, watched by the Saudi masters. When they run out of oil, they will starve. =========================================================== << Oh, the slaves. >> Thank you for telling me that story... it sure explains a lot. They treated them like slaves too. From what I saw, Westerners got decent treatment from the Saudis. They were polite with them. But the poor Paks, etc, got crap from the Saudis. Mean, supercilious, condescending, overbearing. I felt sorry for the poor guys. They were over there, away from their families, so they could make some scratch to support those families without turning to robbery and they were dumped on at every turn. If a manager or supervisor in an American company did some of the crap I saw those Saudis do to ANY employee and it could be proven, they'd be handed their head. Let them eat sand.