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Politics : Politics for Pros- moderated -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (40063)4/19/2004 12:55:36 PM
From: LindyBill  Respond to of 793928
 
The implication that Bush's stance is inexplicable except by his religious beliefs is a bit dotty,

I wonder at the strategy of framing the attack on Bush from strictly a religious standpoint. We sure are seeing a lot of it. I think it is the media's secular outlook overloading their good sense. They dislike the Religious so much that they can't help themselves.



To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (40063)4/19/2004 1:19:54 PM
From: michael97123  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 793928
 
"Our emnity is driving Syria, Iran, Al Qaeda and the Iraqi insurgents together;"

if we cant calm down the shiaa (or sistani cant or gets himself killed in the process) perhaps we should get out. We can help the kurds who would, i am sure, create an arab free zone up north. Israel#2.
And what of iraq--warring arab and iranian factions would blow each other up. Outcome--a democratic revolution in iran?? Arab peacekeepers from jordan and egypt in iraq? Lots of possibilities and not all of them are all bad. Just thinking out of the box at how a pullout would affect november. Also not all bad???? Mike



To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (40063)4/19/2004 2:31:47 PM
From: LindyBill  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 793928
 
Second Thinking - What I got wrong about Iraq.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Monday, April 19, 2004, at 11:04 AM PT

At least there's no question about the flavor of the week. It's a scoop of regime-change second-thoughts, with a dash of "who lost Iraq by gaining it?" Colin Powell, who has never been wise before any event (he was for letting Bosnia slide and didn't want even to move an aircraft carrier on the warning—which he didn't believe—that Saddam was about to invade Kuwait), always has Bob Woodward at his elbow when he wants to be wise afterwards. Richard Clarke has never been asked any questions about his insistence that the United States stay away from Rwanda. Many of those who were opposed to any military intervention now tell us that they always thought it should have been at least twice as big.

To give an example of the latter school: E.J. Dionne in the Washington Post has just instructed his readers that Fallujah and the Sunni triangle would more likely have been under control the first time around, except that we refused the offer of help from the Turks. Dionne, whose politics are an etiolated version of the Dorothy Day/Michael Harrington Catholic-pacifist school, is the soft-Left's William Safire in this thirst for Turkish power. At the time, I thought it was impressive that the United States refused Turkey's arrogant pre-condition, which was a demand that Turkish troops be allowed into Iraqi Kurdistan. Apart from the fact that there was and is no threat from that quarter, such a concession would have negated our "regime change" claims.

Now we hear on all sides, including Lakhdar Brahimi of the United Nations, that de-Baathification was also a mistake. Can you imagine what the antiwar critics, and many Iraqis, would now be saying if the Baathists had been kept on? This point extends to Paul Bremer's decision to dissolve the Baathist armed forces. That could perhaps have been carried out with more tact, and in easier stages. But it was surely right to say that a) Iraq was the victim of a huge and parasitic military, which invaded externally and repressed internally; and b) that young Iraqi men need no longer waste years of their lives on nasty and stultifying conscription. Moreover, by making it impossible for any big-mouth brigadier or general to declare himself the savior of Iraq in a military coup, the United States also signaled that it would not wish to rule through military proxies (incidentally, this is yet another gross failure of any analogy to Vietnam, El Salvador, Chile, and all the rest of it).

In parallel with this kind of retrospective brilliance, we continue to hear from those whose heroic job it is to keep on exposing the open secret. Fresh bulletins continue to appear from the faction that knows the awful truth: Saddam's Iraq was considered a threat by some people even before Osama Bin Laden became famous. I still recommend Kenneth Pollack's book The Threatening Storm as the best general volume here. Published well before the war and by a member of the Clinton NSC whose pre-Kuwait warnings had been overruled by the first Bush administration, it openly said that continuing coexistence with Saddam Hussein had become impossible and that the aftermath of Sept. 11, 2001, made it thinkable at last to persuade public opinion that this was so. More than any other presentation, this prepared the ground for the intervention. I remember it being rather openly on sale and being considered the argument that you had to beat.

Pollack rested more of his case than he now finds comfortable on the threat from Iraqi WMD. That these used to be a threat is no more to be denied than the cheerful fact that we can now be sure that they no longer are. (And being sure is worth something, by the way, unless you would have preferred to take Saddam's word for it.) So, should it now be my own turn? What did I most get wrong? Hell, I'm not feeling masochistic today. But come on, Hitchens, the right-thinking now insist that you concede at least something.

The thing that I most underestimated is the thing that least undermines the case. And it's not something that I overlooked, either. But the extent of lumpen Islamization in Iraq, on both the Khomeinist and Wahhabi ends (call them Shiite and Sunni if you want a euphemism that insults the majority), was worse than I had guessed.

And this is also why I partly think that Colin Powell, as reported by Woodward, was right. He apparently asked the president if he was willing to assume, or to accept, responsibility for the Iraqi state and society. The only possible answer, morally and politically, would have been "yes." The United States had already made itself co-responsible for Iraqi life, first by imposing the sanctions, second by imposing the no-fly zones, and third by co-existing with the regime. (Three more factors, by the way, that make the Vietnam comparison utterly meaningless.) This half-slave/half-free compromise could not long have endured.

The antiwar Left used to demand the lifting of sanctions without conditions, which would only have gratified Saddam Hussein and his sons and allowed them to rearm. The supposed neutrals, such as Russia and France and the United Nations, were acting as knowing profiteers in a disgusting oil-for-bribes program that has now been widely exposed. The regime-change forces said, in effect: Lift the sanctions and remove the regime. But in the wasted decade of sanctions-plus-Saddam, a whole paranoid and wretched fundamentalist underclass was created and exploited by the increasingly Islamist propaganda of the Baath Party. This also helps explain the many overlooked convergences between the supposedly "secular" Baathists and the forces of jihad.

When fools say that the occupation has "united" Sunni and Shiite, they flatter the alliance between the proxies of the Iranian mullahs and the Saudi princes. And they ignore the many pleas from disputed and distraught towns, from Iraqis who beg not to be abandoned to these sadistic and corrupt riffraff. One might have seen this coming with greater prescience. But it would have made it even more important not to leave Iraq to the post-Saddam plans of such factions. There was no way around our adoption of Iraq, as there still is not. It's only a pity that the decision to intervene was left until so many years had been consumed by the locust.

Christopher Hitchens is a columnist for Vanity Fair and a regular contributor to Slate. His most recent book is Blood, Class and Empire He is also the author of A Long Short War: The Postponed Liberation of Iraq.

Article URL: slate.msn.com



To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (40063)4/19/2004 3:11:38 PM
From: LindyBill  Respond to of 793928
 
I just sent this reply to Okrent on the Kerry/Kansas City story.

Thank you for responding to my Email about your reporter's "Kerry in Kansas City" article. This article that you sent me a copy of was precisely the reason I contacted you in the first place. The other Papers framed it as, "Kerry denies being at meeting where the assassination of US Senators was discussed." The "Times" article framed it as, "FBI says Kerry innocent of all charges," and never discusses this issue. Here is the passage from your article.

Mr. Kerry resigned from Vietnam Veterans Against the War in November 1971, the reports indicate, several months later than he has previously recollected. He quit to run for Congress from Massachusetts after feuding with more radical leaders within the group, among them Al Hubbard, a national co-director who had met in Paris with representatives of North Vietnam.

A Nov. 19, 1971, F.B.I. teletype marked ''urgent'' quoted an informant describing a group meeting six days earlier in Kansas City, Mo., at which many delegates wanted the group to take the initiative in peace efforts with North Vietnam. ''John Kerry, V.V.A.W. national chairman, considered conservative by most V.V.A.W. members resigned for 'personal reasons,' '' the report said.


Here is how the "Boston Globe" played it.

KERRY CAN'T RECALL BEING AT '71 PARLEY
Published on April 1, 2004
Author(s): Michael Kranish, Globe Staff

Senator John F. Kerry said through a spokesman this week that he has no recollection of attending a November 1971 meeting of Vietnam Veterans Against the War at which some activists discussed a plot to kill some US senators who backed the war.

"Senator Kerry does not remember attending the Kansas City meeting," Kerry spokesman Michael Meehan said in a statement to the Globe in response to written questions about the matter. "Kerry does not remember any discussions that you
Click for complete article (986 words)


This issue is dormant now, but rest assured that Rove, et al, will make sure it comes up again. When it does, your reporter will write a "rowback," I suppose.