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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Jacob Snyder who wrote (130170)4/27/2004 12:50:34 AM
From: Stephen O  Respond to of 281500
 
You win the prize for stating the obvious today.



To: Jacob Snyder who wrote (130170)4/27/2004 6:57:56 AM
From: Sig  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
<<For a U.S. soldier in Iraq, today, to walk away from their unit, would be suicidal. Where would he go? >>>

I was talking about deserters under moderm combat conditions, and left it to Bilow to drag in all wars and
AWOLs from anywhere.

But it was useful to research the area. Apparently about 4040 went missing fron the Viet-nam era. Of which 4000 occured within the US and 40 in Viet Nam. And very few of those 40 occurred during combat, most just did not return from leave or report to their next assignment.

If anyone wants to leave the service its is fairly easy.
Several men left my outfit in the US while waiting overseas assignments during wartime. They just hired lawyers for about $250 (nearly 1 years pay for a Private).

One of those men was an heir to an auto company fortune, he had the $250 (hehe). And certainly he would have been much more valuable to the country in that position than repairing airplane gun systems. We were too young and stupid to be afraid- being in the service appeared to be a great adventure- and it was. And it is today.


My client is limping, my client cant see well, my client has family to support, my client is more valuable in a civilian job etc.


What was even more interesting was reports of Iraqi deserters that went to the Kurdish areas.

They were paid $2 per month, had perhaps two slice of moldy bread and a bit of rice per day, and got their water from puddles on the ground. And were permitted no radios so had no idea what was going on elsewhere.

My guess is that Saddam had no idea they were treated like that, and that he thought he was providing enough money. But the graft and corruption down the chain was so great there was nothing left for the troops at the end of the chain.

Our shock and awe campaign must have worked as they needed great incentive to desert. They would be shot if caught deserting, the were told the Kurds would shoot them if they went over, their families in Iraq would be punished.

Life is an adventure. One man near here is a Commander in the Naval reserve, and a commercial jet pilot. He flew more missions off a carrier in the Gulf than any other pilot,and is now back with an airline.
We all have to go sometime, and perhaps his airplane will be hijacked, but I will bet he has a gun and will not die easy.
H$$l, he would just do a swift roll and plaster the hijackers who are not strapped down onto the the cabin roof. And than shoot'em.

Oh, I forgot, we are not supposed to kill people, so maybe he will just let them terrorists take over.

Sig



To: Jacob Snyder who wrote (130170)5/6/2004 1:07:07 AM
From: Sam Citron  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
"I have never known a time in my life when America and its president were more hated around the world than today." --THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN, Op-Ed Columnist, NY Times 5/6/04

Restoring Our Honor

We are in danger of losing something much more important than just the war in Iraq. We are in danger of losing America as an instrument of moral authority and inspiration in the world. I have never known a time in my life when America and its president were more hated around the world than today. I was just in Japan, and even young Japanese dislike us. It's no wonder that so many Americans are obsessed with the finale of the sitcom "Friends" right now. They're the only friends we have, and even they're leaving.

This administration needs to undertake a total overhaul of its Iraq policy; otherwise, it is courting a total disaster for us all.

That overhaul needs to begin with President Bush firing Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld — today, not tomorrow or next month, today. What happened in Abu Ghraib prison was, at best, a fundamental breakdown in the chain of command under Mr. Rumsfeld's authority, or, at worst, part of a deliberate policy somewhere in the military-intelligence command of sexually humiliating prisoners to soften them up for interrogation, a policy that ran amok.

Either way, the secretary of defense is ultimately responsible, and if we are going to rebuild our credibility as instruments of humanitarian values, the rule of law and democratization, in Iraq or elsewhere, Mr. Bush must hold his own defense secretary accountable. Words matter, but deeds matter more. If the Pentagon leadership ran any U.S. company with the kind of abysmal planning in this war, it would have been fired by shareholders months ago.

I know that tough interrogations are vital in a war against a merciless enemy, but outright torture, or this sexual-humiliation-for-entertainment, is abhorrent. I also know the sort of abuse that went on in Abu Ghraib prison goes on in prisons all over the Arab world every day, as it did under Saddam — without the Arab League or Al Jazeera ever saying a word about it. I know they are shameful hypocrites, but I want my country to behave better — not only because it is America, but also because the war on terrorism is a war of ideas, and to have any chance of winning we must maintain the credibility of our ideas.

We were hit on 9/11 by people who believed hateful ideas — ideas too often endorsed by some of their own spiritual leaders and educators back home. We cannot win a war of ideas against such people by ourselves. Only Arabs and Muslims can. What we could do — and this was the only legitimate rationale for this war — was try to help Iraqis create a progressive context in the heart of the Arab-Muslim world where that war of ideas could be fought out.

But it is hard to partner with someone when you become so radioactive no one wants to stand next to you. We have to restore some sense of partnership with the world if we are going to successfully partner with Iraqis.

Mr. Bush needs to invite to Camp David the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council, the heads of both NATO and the U.N., and the leaders of Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Syria. There, he needs to eat crow, apologize for his mistakes and make clear that he is turning a new page. Second, he needs to explain that we are losing in Iraq, and if we continue to lose the U.S. public will eventually demand that we quit Iraq, and it will then become Afghanistan-on-steroids, which will threaten everyone. Third, he needs to say he will be guided by the U.N. in forming the new caretaker government in Baghdad. And fourth, he needs to explain that he is ready to listen to everyone's ideas about how to expand our force in Iraq, and have it work under a new U.N. mandate, so it will have the legitimacy it needs to crush any uprisings against the interim Iraqi government and oversee elections — and then leave when appropriate. And he needs to urge them all to join in.

Let's not lose sight of something — as bad as things look in Iraq, it is not yet lost, for one big reason: America's aspirations for Iraq and those of the Iraqi silent majority, particularly Shiites and Kurds, are still aligned. We both want Iraqi self-rule and then free elections. That overlap of interests, however clouded, can still salvage something decent from this war — if the Bush team can finally screw up the courage to admit its failures and dramatically change course.

Yes, the hour is late, but as long as there's a glimmer of hope that this Bush team will do the right thing, we must insist on it, because America's role in the world is too precious — to America and to the rest of the world — to be squandered like this.

nytimes.com