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Politics : Stockman Scott's Political Debate Porch -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: stockman_scott who wrote (44031)	4/27/2004 9:21:21 PM
From: Jim Willie CB	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 89467

oh no, next motivation is to continue in Iraq in order to justify all who have died last autumn I argued vociferously with a few friends who agreed with the war and its premise of WMD I said "next spring and summer, you will no longer talk about WMD, but rather about democracy and an ousted dictator, with patriotic drivel about support for the troops who are putting their lives on the line" I got a few to make a promise IF WMD IS NO LONGER DISCUSSED, THEN THEY WOULD ADMIT THE WAR WAS WRONG my reply "YOU WILL BREAK THAT PROMISE" they are doing precisely that now / jim

To: stockman_scott who wrote (44031)	4/28/2004 6:24:47 AM
From: Wharf Rat	Respond to of 89467

Vietnamese advice to U.S.: Leave Iraq Former foe warns of quagmire HANOI, Vietnam -- The Vietnamese people have some friendly advice for the United States: Don't make the same mistake twice. Get out of Iraq before it's too late. As a divided America debates whether the U.S.-led Iraq war is "Bush's Vietnam," opinion in Vietnam is united: What the Vietnamese call the "American War" was a misguided adventure, and so is the war in Iraq. In two dozen interviews, Vietnamese from across the country noted some key differences between the two conflicts. But nearly all said there was a common theme: Imperialist wars of aggression in which a rich, powerful country meddles in the affairs of a smaller, weaker foe whose culture it doesn't understand. The result, they say, could be another quagmire. "It seems like the United States is going to be stuck in Iraq, just like they got stuck in Vietnam years ago," said Col. Tran Nhung, who writes for Quan Doi Nhan Dan, Vietnam's military daily. "No country in the world will accept a foreign invasion -- this is a fundamental truth." Most Vietnamese were pleased when former President Clinton normalized relations between the two former foes in 1995, and they relish ever closer U.S.-Vietnam ties. So their criticism was offered in a friendly way. Many people expressed sympathy for the victims of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, but they said the war in Iraq is unlikely to deter future acts of terrorism. Their skepticism about the war is fueled in part by the fact that no evidence has been found to support the central claims that President Bush used to justify the conflict, said Nguyen Quoc Huy, 53, a college professor. "They have found no evidence of weapons of mass destruction," Huy said. "They have found no evidence of a link between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden." It's difficult, but not impossible, to find Vietnamese who support the American invasion. "Saddam Hussein was a dictator," said Pham Duc Phuong, 35, who works for a private business in Hanoi. "He didn't care about the lives of most Iraqis. Because of him, Iraq was cut off from the outside world. He lived in luxurious palaces, but his people lived in poverty." Inevitably, Vietnamese view Iraq through the prism of their own experiences. And 75-year-old Mai Van Thuan's experience under French colonialism makes him deeply suspicious of foreign intervention of any kind. Sixty years later, he still has vivid memories of his father's French employers slapping him across the face. He doesn't believe American promises about building democracy in Iraq or saving Iraqis from a brutal tyrant. "The invaders always say nice things when they arrive," said Thuan. "They always have nice, elegant words." When Bush vowed recently to send more troops if needed, his words reminded many here of the American troop escalation in Vietnam. "Surely this war will sow protests and divisions among the American people," said Hoang Van Thinh, a 27-year-old Hanoi resident, recalling American protests against the Vietnam War. Vietnamese see one major difference between their war and the one in Iraq: Four decades ago the Vietnamese were far more united and prepared to fight than the Iraqi people are today. They rallied behind communist leader Ho Chi Minh. By contrast, Iraqi insurgents are leaderless, and the country is riven by hostile religious factions. But the longer the United States occupies the country, said Nguyen Thi Han, an elementary school teacher from Long An, the faster Iraqis will put aside their differences. "They need to learn from us," said Han. "Vietnam is a united country, and that strength was there when we defeated the United States. If the Iraqi people stand up and fight, surely they will win." southbendtribune.com