General Odom transcript now available:
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DOBBS: My next guest says the United States has failed in Iraq and it should leave immediately. General William Odom directed the National Security Agency under President Reagan, served on President Carter's National Security Council. He is the co-author of a new book called "America's Inadvertent Empire."
And General Odom joins us tonight from Washington, D.C.
General, good to have you with us.
RET. GEN. WILLIAM ODOM, AUTHOR, "AMERICA'S INADVERTENT EMPIRE": Thank you.
DOBBS: There are many people who know you, who have great respect for your service to the nation, including your military service, who are shocked that you would say, it's time to withdraw from Iraq. Why have you -- how have you come to that conclusion?
ODOM: Well, I reached the conclusion before we went in that it was not in the U.S. interest.
And I actually -- I didn't publish anything. But I at least said to people who asked me that the issue wasn't whether we would be greeted as liberators when we came in, but how we would be treated six months after we're there. And the idea that we could create a constitutional regime that would be pro-U.S. in a short period of time there struck me as pure fantasy.
I must say, I found it hard to believe that the administration internally could make that argument convincingly to themselves. And I've just sort of been quiet since. But it seems now there is enough evidence where I can at least say not that I told you so, but that it really doesn't pay -- I would like very much to be wrong on this, but I don't see how it pays the United States to continue to go down this path.
And to understand that, you have to really I think analyze it at the Iraqi level, the regional level and particularly they international European level.
DOBBS: Well, let's talk about it, if we may, first, from the standpoint -- there are those who will be listening to you say this and say, my God, we've got to support our troops. Irrespective of the ultimate strategic decision about withdrawal and at what point or whether we achieve success and at what point. Are you concerned about this kind of discussion first and foremost having an impact on American troops in Iraq?
ODOM: The word I've heard from what was written about me in the "Wall Street Journal" is that the troops seem to like it, or at least the ones who I have. You know, the troops are not dumb about this business. They were not very happy, if you remember. Some of them even spoke out, naming the secretary of defense last year about his policy there.
And because we have vastly too few army troops to do what the administration wants to do over there, they're really feeling the pain. So I don't think this kind of discussion would create that reaction among the troops. In fact, quite the contrary.
DOBBS: As you say General, they're the ones who feel the pain and it is their blood that is, unfortunately, being spilled. Let's talk about Fallujah, if we may, from first the tactical standpoint. Your suggestion, your consideration as to what it means for the future of Iraq.
The Pentagon cannot confirm that a deal is in place, or chooses not to. We are told it is being handled by a tactical level in which generals from Saddam Hussein's army would be moved in with an Iraqi army, U.S. marines withdraw. This sounds -- give us your characterization, your assessment of what is going on.
ODOM: It's very confusing to me. I don't know why they would do that. Maybe there are reasons we just don't know from afar with the information we have. But I don't see how turning it over into an Iraqi general now that we have been working with for a good period of time is a wise thing to do.
It might tamper things down in Fallujah temporarily. But my judgment about whether to continue down this path isn't based on whether we could stop the violence in Fallujah right now, but suppose we did. We're still on a downward course. The battles we're seeing right now are with the residual parts of the old Baathists Sunni regime, we haven't begun the big fight yet with the Sunnis except with Muqtada al-Sadr. And that may give you a little idea what we can face at that level.
DOBBS: As you know, General, there are those who say that if we do not bring Fallujah, Najaf to successful conclusion, if we are indeed, not successful in Iraq itself in bringing about at least the incipient form of democracy for Iraq, that we have simply invited greater problems for the western world in terms of radical Islamist terrorism and that we will be paying a very high price in the future. How do you respond?
ODOM: Well, I said those things before we went in. I said we'll make it safe for al Qaeda and that we'll please Iran enormously, because they hated Saddam. I think Osama bin Laden couldn't be more pleased.
I'm concerned about putting our resources against al Qaeda and stabilizing the larger region. And what I think this is doing is undercutting the U.S. international authority for stabilizing the region at large.
And we've let the tactical focus on Saddam completely unhinge our military commitments from a larger strategic interest of stabilizing that region and defeating al Qaeda. And you've got this brilliant military, which has performed marvelously. It is unprecedented in military anals what they've been able to do. But military power, unless it is directed to some sensible, achievable political end, has no purpose.
What I see here is an unhinging of our military capabilities from our political strategy. And that's what I think we have to pull back, pay the price for, in order to keep from wasting more resources, regain the support of our allies and then try to take charge of a larger region in a way where we're not dealing on just our resources with the rest of the world standing off and enjoying our pain, but with the rest of the world cooperating with us.
DOBBS: General William Odom, thank you for being here. Always good to talk with you.
ODOM: Thank you. |
