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Pastimes : Jacob's posts to save -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Jacob Snyder who wrote (57)5/1/2004 4:02:55 AM
From: Raymond Duray  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 123
 
Jacob,

That is truly one of the most insightful, profound and thoughtful posts that has ever been archived on the SI system.

It's too bad that no one gives a fu<k.

(Except a mere handful of real patriots, of course.)



To: Jacob Snyder who wrote (57)5/1/2004 11:54:41 AM
From: Mary Cluney  Respond to of 123
 
<<<Senator Kerry represents the Republican wing of the Democratic Party, and the Democratic wing of the War Party. He wants to increase troop levels in the Occupied Territories (Afghanistan and Iraq), and fight till victory. His call for foreign troops to replace ours, is wishful thinking. Bush has already gone, hat in hand, begging everyone for troops, and got no takers.>>>

The Ralph Naders in this world are not going to do us any good. To me, they are saying "it's my way or the highway" or "if we can't do it my way - all the way - then I say to hell with it".

I think the founding fathers (of the US) had it right all along. They could have set it up so the President was a dictator. They could have set it up so the President could dictate things the way it should be. But, they knew better.

A democracy was never going to be perfect. Human nature being what it is, perfection is not in the cards - not yet. Democracy is a process. You have to work at it to make it better - in incremental small steps. You have to take what you can get - at the same time the founding fathers put in a lot of checks and balances - to make it as difficult as possible to corrupt the whole system.

You have to have faith that things will ultimately work out - but the bad news is that it is not going to happen within our lifetime or even within the lifetime of our grandchildren - where things will be perfect.

I still think our system is the best system in existence - even though at the moment things do not look that terrific. The way the real world works is you move a few steps forward, and stuff happens, where you fall back a few yards - but inevitably things get better - but slowly.



To: Jacob Snyder who wrote (57)5/5/2004 1:19:21 PM
From: Jacob Snyder  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 123
 
Ilsa Koch Gets Kotched: It's Not A Job. It's An Adventure.

Regarding the torture of Iraqi men by the American military as chronicled by the world’s press:

Janis Karpinski, reportedly a general in the American military, presided over the prison where it happened, and therefore over the torture. To her I want to say: I’m proud of you, Janis. As one who served in the armed forces, as one whose father was in the Pacific in World War II, and spent the rest of his career as a mathematician for the Navy, I want to thank you for making your prisoners give each other blow jobs. This is what America stands for, after all: Compulsory blow jobs. Giving sadistic little bitches and sonsofbitches sex toys to torment. I’m proud of you, Janis.

Now, the soldiers who did it apparently were enlisted. What may we deduce from this?

Enlisted men do not undertake systematic complicated degradation and torture of prisoners without the knowledge and approval of their officers. The officers knew. Officers to what level? Officers are college graduates and understand the political implications of such things. A lieutenant is too junior to risk it and in any event couldn’t hide it from the captain. Prisons—I’ve been in a bunch of them—are intimate places. People know what goes on.

Karpinski, covering her behind (as well she might: this is war-crimes stuff and she could take the fall) says why she had no idea and who would have thought it and anyway the intelligence people were behind it. Sure. I believe she didn’t know. Stalin didn’t know what was going on either. Naw. In this business we’re all virgins.

But suppose, as Karpinski says, the intelligence agencies were behind it. Then it was deliberate, systematic, and authorized, wasn’t it? Not rogue soldiers. American policy. A general as much as says so. Intelligence agencies don’t just, oops, torture people systematically. You know, like stepping on the cat. Who could doubt the word of a general?

The pictures, note, are trophy pictures. The torturers are proud of what they are doing. They think it’s a hoot. They want to show people back home. (Though perhaps not their mothers.) Note how obedient the Iraqis are. Think about this. One man doesn’t give another a blow job for the amusement of Twiggy unless he is terrified of the consequences if he refuses. Is it only psychological torture? In the pictures, yes. Somebody is behind them with whips and pliers. Those men are scared shitless, and they have a reason.

Torture is routine in war and intelligence. We know about assassinations by the CIA and Mossad, don’t we? An agency that will kill people won’t torture them? It isn’t remotely just the Americans and Israelis. Pick your war and read the history. It’s everybody. If you enjoy gagging, the French in Algeria were particularly good.

Why does it happen? First, because it’s practical. Knowledge is power. Knowledge is lives. You capture a guy at the bomb factory. You want to know where the bomb will go off because you know it will kill all sorts of people you don’t want killed. He doesn’t want to tell you because he hates you. You squeeze it out of him. You do whatever you have to do. You crush joints, fire up the propane torch, chop off fingers an inch at a time and move up the arm. Don’t believe me? Pick your war and do some careful reading.

Second, soldiers come to hate the enemy, to regard him as subhuman, especially if he differs from them. When you have seen the remains of a friend who burned to death in an APC hit by Iraqi RPGs, philosophy departs. Our alleged common humanity takes fifth place behind a desire to kill the bastards any way possible. Torture? Why not? They’re worse than dogs.

Third, jobs involving torture attract people who like it. Would you crush a man’s testicles because the lieutenant ordered you to? Probably not, or not without misgivings. You might understand the reasoning: “Look, this guy is IRA and he knows where five hundred pounds of Semtex is hidden in downtown London. We have to find out.” The arithmetic is hard to argue. And the terr can stop the proceedings simply by talking. You might see no choice.

But you would probably prefer to leave it to someone else, for when you were out of earshot.

So you need specialists. Always there are people around who are comfortable with torture and degradation, who just flat enjoy hurting people. They are called “sadists.” They are useful. Note the smile on the face of the little minx who is making the Iraaqi man masturbate for her. She is getting off. It’s fun. Note the expressions of the guys in the pictures. These are special people.

How surprising is any of this? Not very. War brutalizes people. It provides opportunities to people who are already brutal. This is no secret. The various Moslem groups torture prisoners. The Afghans are famous for it. Democracies lie about it, but they do it. Wars do not bring out the Emily Post in us. Torture is what we do.

Morals? Nobody has any. The Iraqi resistance doesn’t hesitate to car-bomb targets in downtown Baghdad, killing large numbers of civilians. The US forces don’t hesitate to bomb cities, killing large numbers of civilians. I get email from Americans revolted that GIs could engage in torture. But…that’s because we think our people should be above such things.

Some wars are necessary. Some aren't. Why are we in Iraq? After WWII, the French occupied Vietnam (again) by force of arms; in 1954, after years of bloody war, they lost at Dien Bien Phu and left. In the late forties, the Jews occupied Palestine by force of arms; after years of bloody war, that one is still undecided. A bit later, the French, having learned nothing, did the same thing in Algeria; they lost again and left again.

Meanwhile the Americans, having learned nothing from all of this, occupied Vietnam by force; after years of bloody etc, they leaped off the top of the Embassy and fled. The Israelis, sigh, occupied southern Lebanon, and ….The Russians occupied Afghanistan and after years of bloody etc, got whipped. Is there a pattern here? Or did someone put something in my tequila?

Presumably having noticed none of this, America is occupying both Afghanistan and Iraq. We send our soldiers to preside over torture and humiliation. I doubt it's what they enlisted for.
Monday, April 3, 2004 by Fred Reed fredoneverything.net



To: Jacob Snyder who wrote (57)6/9/2004 3:56:08 AM
From: Jacob Snyder  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 123
 
May 2004: What is the definition of.....torture?

The press does Herd Behavior really, really well. Back when Saddam's statue was pulled down, and the mighty U.S. tank spearheads were blasting their way into the heart of Baghdad, and flags were on every car in America, back when Bush's approval ratings were (briefly, oh so briefly) at 80%, the American press did its best imitation of Kipling. Our Noble Warriors, off in the Way-Far-Away East, Bearing the White Man's Burden, bringing the light of civilization and Halliburton to Iraq, slaying the evil Saddam dragon, rescuing the Oil Maiden from the towel-heads. It was glorious, and the press cheered it, with One Voice.

Well, things change. The Media Herd sniffs something else, shuffles uneasily, redirects their myopic gaze, then heads off in a new direction. It's now mid-2004, and the press now, only now, wants to know: What is the definition of torture?

Turns out, this is a question the U.S. government knew the Media Herd would eventually be asking, so they got ready for it. Or perhaps they were just being thorough, doing contingency planning, in case Outraged Denial and Shoot-The-Messenger didn't work, and they needed a further fallback plan. In their usual fashion, they formed a committee, with members sent from everywhere that counts, and then issued a report in March 2003. The parts that count are: The Pentagon, the office of the Vice President, a few other places from the Executive branch and military. Not the State Department, not the Congress. No Supreme Court Justices were asked for their opinion, on exactly what was a "stress position", and exactly how long could you do it to someone, and did it matter if you did it on U.S. soil or elsewhere in the Empire, and could Guantanamo be considered U.S. soil (the answer is: it depends), and when precisely are you crossing the line into torture.....

People don't ask themselves these questions, unless they are worrying about the potential for a war crimes trial, in some imaginable future. The U.S. government asked itself these questions, in great detail, long before Ms. England became a celeb.

Like pornography, torture is hard to define, but most of us know it when we see it. For instance:

It was one night in November when the guards came another time for Amjed Isail Waleed. He was in Room 1, he recalled later, when ''they told me to lay down on my stomach and they were jumping on me from the bed onto my back and my legs.'' The assault was only beginning. He was already naked, and his hands were bound and tied to a cell door. One guard urinated on him and laughed. Two women hit his penis with a sponge ball. One -- ''with blond hair, she is white'' -- fondled him, he said. At some point in the night, the guards broke a phosphorescent light stick -- ''the glowing finger,'' he called it -- and poured its liquid on his body ''until I was glowing and they were laughing.'' ''They took me to the room and they signaled me to get onto the floor,'' he said. One of the guards, he said, sodomized him with a nightstick. ''And I started screaming, and he pulled it out and he washed it with water inside the room,'' he said. All the while, he concluded, ''they were taking pictures of me.''
Message 20186557

Ashcroft and Rumsfeld read reports of this, and lots more like it. And they concluded, it wasn't torture. It was....abuse......but not torture. They read the reports, and then went on to the next item in their in-box. Only when the pictures appeared in the newspapers, did they start to actually see a problem. The problem, of course, was the pictures in the newspaper. The solution: ban all cameras in the U.S. military.

Americans are surprised and shocked, that Americans could do what the pictures clearly show Ms. England doing. This surprise is possible, only because Americans, as a rule, know nothing of their own history. Our wars, and particularly our wars against towelhead-types (Sandinistas, gooks, Japs, Huns, filipino insurgents, red savages, niggers, etc.) are full of similar actions, done by people like Ms. England. Look closely, look without first making the assertion "Americans don't do that", and you will see it. In every war.

The only modern innovation, it that now women get to do it. Before now, it was considered Man's Work, and everyone knew that women were emotionally and physically ill-equipped. It was even asserted, by both 1880's Victorians and 1970's Women's Libbers, that women were Better than men, and could never do rape and torture. After all, almost all rapes and assaults, in all cultures and times, are done by men. But now, thanks to all the sacrifice and hard work of Suffragists and feminists, the Gentler Sex have the opportunity to bring that special Woman's Touch to their work in Iraq's prisons. Women can, yes they can, do everything a man can do. They can Actualize their FullPotential as human beings, given a permissive and accepting social/political environment. And these proud women can even take the pictures to prove it. I'm sure this is just what Susan B. Anthony intended.

So, now, the Media Herd is in motion in a new direction, and it will lumber forward, unstoppable. They will dig and dig, and re-interview everyone, and not let unanswered questions drop. For instance, we are finally getting a little more information about who beat to death those prisoners at Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan, back in 2002. Turns out, unsurprisingly, it was the same unit that later produced those Iraq prison trophy photos. They learned their techniques in Afghanistan and Guantanamo. At the time, though, there were just a few articles, when the autopsy reports came out. But then silence. The war was popular, we seemed to be winning, so nobody was interested in digging for details. Nobody cared that nobody was named. Nobody was arrested, and the military got away with a permanent investigation that went nowhere.

But even an Imperial Presidency can't stop the Media Herd. So, someday, we may even find out which U.S. soldiers helped Dostum's militia stuff thousands of Taliban prisoners into containers, lock the nearly-airtight doors, and set them out in the desert sun till the contents were cooked. I'll bet the "Special" soldiers who did that, back in late 2001, have been hard at work in Iraq for over a year now, winning hearts and minds.

So, that's the question for May, 2004, in America: what is torture? And did we do it, and who ordered or allowed it, and who knew it, and when did they know it? And what does it say about us, that we are even having to ask ourselves these questions?