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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (131284)	5/4/2004 12:37:46 AM
From: Ilaine	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

I really am feeling a bit down right now.. Chin up. Yes, there are people all over the world who are wetting their pants with excitement that they've been given such a propaganda gift. I doubt that they honestly care for the men who were abused, they just want sticks to beat the US and/or Bush with. As far as they are concerned, Bush himself abused those poor men. Ask yourself, what well-intentioned person would make that accusation?

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (131284)	5/4/2004 2:42:51 AM
From: cnyndwllr	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

Hawk, re: ------------------------------------------------------- "If we['re] so "evil", I guess we can leave the Arabs to their own devices, expedite energy self-sufficiency via hydrogen and nuclear power, and let the rest of the world deal with OPEC. I really am feeling a bit down right now.. And I hope those soldiers who committed those abuses understand the burden they have off-loaded onto future generations." ------------------------------------------------------- Do you need some group therapy; if so, many of us have felt "a bit down" about this ill-conceived, ill-advised and poorly executed adventure from the beginning, and, in part, for the same reasons that you articulate, that is; the "burden ... off-loaded onto future generations." But please don't lay the major blame on those "soldiers who committed these abuses." It's not accurate to attribute the probable failure of our Iraqi mission to their actions. If it hadn't been pictures of Iraqis being tortured or humiliated while in our custody, it would have been a rape, or a lash-out killing of civilians, or something else. The Iraqi nation is on the verge of rebellion and if this isn't the match that lights the fuse, something else will be. The blueprint for the Iraqi failure was written long ago when ideologues with simplistic, unsophisticated views of the world and with a deep disdain for the power and pride of average men everywhere, decided that America could use it's military to remake another culture and that we could take what we wanted in the process. The poor workmanship of the guards was an almost inevitable result of that flawed blueprint. To make them the scapegoats ignores the more culpable actions of those who placed them in the unenviable position of attempting to secure information from average Iraqis who were involved in deadly actions against our troops, some of whom were probably not guilty but who were indistinguishable from those who were. A job, by the way, that could ONLY be done quickly through the use of mental or physical cruelty. The facts are that from the moment it became clear that the Iraqi citizens weren't willing to die fighting for the "Iraqi" we'd mapped out for them, and weren't even willing to provide adequate intelligence against those that were killing us, the mission was doomed to failure. The only questions were how long we would hold on and how many lives would be lost before we left. The tragic failure lies less in our inability to "create" the Iraq WE envisioned, and more in the inevitable pile of broken pottery we will leave behind in our vacuum. Who will fill that vacuum and how much face and trust will we have lost in the process? How many young Muslims will view us as the "evil empire?" How much credence have we given to the rhetoric of the terrorists and radicals? The answers are chilling. So you'll have to do what we've done; look for something to hold onto, regret the stupidity of our leadership and hope that the damage is limited. Our support group meets on the 2nd of November and, yes, you're welcome to attend.

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (131284)	5/4/2004 4:56:29 AM
From: Maurice Winn	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Come on Hawk, cheer up. In the absence of the UN in a sensible form, the USA and Cow is the next best thing and 57% of Iraqis want the USA to stay, at least for now. I suspect if push came to shove and especially if the USA put Saddam back in a palace along with a security force to help him re-establish control, then pulled out, complete with their cash flow, the vote would show that in fact 70% of Iraqis would find it better to have the USA remain in place. As with the British in Northern Ireland, trying to keep order, it doesn't take a heck of a lot of destructive people to create misery for a lot of people. Look at Carl's horrid "Sniper" poem and look at the results of the two guys sniper murdering people around Washington area. It doesn't take much to make a lot of news, fear and pandemonium. You are feeling the pressure of Noblesse Oblige but with an element of hubris. A more modest USA wouldn't have presumed that being the world's only superpower was sufficient qualification to rule the world and get stuck into Iraq without full-on support from the UN. A more sensible USA would have been more thoughtful, concentrated on Osama's likely hideouts and where known nukes such as Pakistan's were going, while getting the NUN organized into a sensible form. That would have meant giving up power and one thing megalomaniacs have trouble doing is giving up power. 4% of the world can't run the world, even with a very horrific approach to subhuman UnAmerican types, which the USA doesn't like to take though limited human rights are offered to alleged terrorists cooped up in concentration camps without habeas corpus and all that legalistic jazz. Ease the burden Hawk. A problem shared is a problem halved, but in this case it would be a problem much less than halved. Give the UN a big push along. Sign up to the International Criminal Court. Spread human rights beyond the borders of the USA. The Supreme Court is thinking of including Guantanamo Bay and maybe they'll go further than that. Mqurice