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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (131359)	5/4/2004 10:10:21 AM
From: epicure	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

That's a good question Hawkmoon. If I confronted the gang leaders, I could get both the child and myself killed- and possibly also endanger innocent bystanders (this isn't 100% for sure, but the odds are good enough, that I'm not going to do that.) So let's see, I call in an authority that, while it has problems, has some experience dealing with this sort of thing, and has the resources to (probably) produce a better outcome - social services. Do I work for change - economic and social? You bet- but I don't do it from behind the barrel of a gun. That usually only works out well in the movies. That's a great analogy to Iraq, btw. I see the flawed, yet semi-credible social services organization as being the UN, and of course I am the US, the child is Iraq, the innocent bystanders are the countries around Iraq, that could get drawn in to this thing (although they aren't really "innocent" still, it sounded nice). As for the lack of will stuff, phooey. You can't put this down to lack of will, or blame the people who see the problem for the problem. That's just silly.

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (131359)	5/4/2004 1:00:33 PM
From: cnyndwllr	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Hawk, you're not covering much new ground. Your pronouncements that we need to "create" a new Iraqi society or that Iraq needs to be "socially rehabilitated," or that their system needs to be "restructured" are usually met with the protestations that it "ISN'T WORKING." To that you reply that we have to have the "will" and that it's "crucial" that we get the job done. Of course the Iraqis could make internal changes with the support of their people and the right leadership from their leaders (clerics), but I'd appreciate it if you'd take the next logical step of telling us any possible plan by which WE COULD get Iraq "socially rehabilitated...restructured...and created." I've heard your idealistic conclusions that if WE have the "will" we can do this, but I haven't heard you address specific steps WE can take to do this, especially in light of the events that have unfolded, the attitudes of the Iraqi people that are, at best, ambivalant and, at worst, violently resistant to our "vision" of Iraq and the seeming escalating resistance to our very presence in Iraq. Our government, through a long and shifting process, has finally hit upon humanitarian and geopolitical reasons for a war in Iraq upon which almost all Americans can rally. The real divide is between those who believe that the task is not doable and those who believe that it is. If the discussion is to advance it will have to advance beyond the "we can do it" level and to the "we can do it by taking the following actions" level. I think that many of us have talked about the reasons why we believe the task is doomed to failure and have also laid out why a delayed and protracted process of failure is, in itself, compounding the problem. Why are we wrong about the inability of America to socially re-engineer Iraq? What concrete steps or actions can America take to move forward to a successful conclusion in Iraq? Sometimes working harder doesn't get the job done. Sometimes working smarter doesn't get the job done. Some jobs just aren't doable and the time, blood and efforts put into attempting to do such jobs are wasted. That's the point that I think many of are making. That's the point that will have to be rebutted in order to secure the backing of those of us who hold such views, and all of the "we can't quit...we did it in Germany...we need to have the will" rationales won't change any minds.