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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Neocon who wrote (131746)	5/6/2004 11:02:38 AM
From: Lou Weed	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 281500

<<Torture is not okay, as a normal interrogation technique. But it is not as bad in all circumstances, and may be justified, depending upon what is at stake.>> Don't you guys at some point ask yourselves how much further does this administration push the envelope to where I just can't rationalize their actions anymore. You do realize that in the same sentence you wrote "torture is not ok" and then "and may be justified". Where do you draw the line with these guys Neocon??? MON.

To: Neocon who wrote (131746)	5/6/2004 12:34:10 PM
From: el_gaviero	Read Replies (6) \| Respond to of 281500

Neo-con, I congratulate you on holding out almost an entire day before pulling out the epithets. Trouble is, “anti-semitism,” as an epithet, has been applied so frequently and so widely that it has lost its stickum, and now means roughly: a person with whom a Jew has come to have a disagreement. Having said that, I apologize. I made a deliberatively provocative statement. Part of my reason for posting on this board is to think through my position on the war in Iraq, and I really do seem to need opposition. I like polemic, and I like to goad people into saying what they really think. This helps me discover what I really think. As far as the Iraq war is concerned, what I really think is that it is a catastrophe, obviously and blatantly not in the interest of the people of the United States. It is also a war provoked by a small group of people who, in the words of Joseph Wilson, pulled off what amounts to a coup d’etat within the government of the United States. The people who pulled off the coup were Jews. (Wohlstetter, Perle, Wolfowitz, Libby, Feith, Abrams to name just a few inside government. They were helped on the outside by media-types like Podhorowitz or however you spell the name, father and son, Krystol, father and son, Krauthammer, Mona Charen, and many many others). I think the role played by Jews in making an end-run around tradition, and in foisting a revolution in American foreign policy, is a topic that has to be noticed and talked about. If noticing and talking about it makes me anti-Semitic, then so be it. What I really am is pro my people, the Anglo-Celtic peoples of the British Isles who made this country great. There is a conflict of interest between my people and yours (if you are a Jew).For one, you have de facto dual citizenship. You can fly to Tel Aviv and become a citizen of Israel tomorrow morning. This gives you a different set of constraints, and a different set of interests in comparison with me. In addition, it seems to me from observation and conversation that the emotional heart of many Jews lies with Israel. I understand. I feel the same way about the Southern part of the United States, where my family has lived for 13 generations. But make no mistake. There is a conflict of interest. I don’t particularly care about Israel. For a long time I bought the party line about Jewish victimization, but then I took the trouble to look into Israeli history, and the more I looked, the less I liked what I saw. Now I think Israel borders on being a moral abomination. That we are supporting this proto-abomination to the tune of billions a month, and fighting a war that it wanted (or some in it wanted, the most radical and brutal), is a measure of the degree of corruption of American politicians. My – only -- country will not be safe until the influence of the Jewish lobby is reduced in the brothel on the Potomac. I don’t know yet how best to go about making such a reduction, but I do know this, the Jews need to be knocked off of their holocaust pedestal, and forced to enter the debate as what they are, just one more grubby interest group trying to capture the levers of power, and make the great horrible machine of government in Washington crank out benefits for them.