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Politics : Should God be replaced? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Greg or e who wrote (17479)	5/15/2004 11:13:17 AM
From: Solon	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 28931

I said: "rationality is associated with "Murder, rape, theft..."." You said: It is, if as you say; "There are no "oughts" implied in evolution, and Nature certainly shows herself to be amoral.' What nonsense! Evolution has NOTHING to do with morality. Why can't you get that through your cement skull? The only entity that can choose right or wrong is an entity that can evaluate and judge. Evolution is NOT a person. Evolution is a theory which explains how biological life adapted to environment and evolved. The fact that evolution cannot find the area of a circle or play a symphony does not mean that people cannot choose whether to commit suicide or to cooperate with others. You are being ridiculous Greg. Please, stop impaling yourself. "I am not advocating such things only pointing out that they are not morally wrong in an amoral "natural" system" They are not morally wrong in creatures that are incapable of evaluating right from wrong. And they are not morally wrong in people who are incompetent to know right from wrong. "Might is right is natures own reality. Atheist are by default only left with naturalism. Therefore might is right should be the logical choice for Atheists." I thought we had agreed that nature was immoral! Now you attempt (once again) to claim it has an "ethic" of MIGHT is "right"! DUH! "Might is right" is NOT the logical choice for anyone who values other creatures. Unless you are the mightiest to withstand all other creatures--that philosophy is bound to get you killed in a hurry! It would be the most ignorant and suicidal choice imaginable--the furthest remove from "logical" one can imagine! You are gurgling enough babble to dry up a brook! "Stalin was not in the throws of passion" That is debatable as well as irrelevant. Stalin did not live in a free society where right and wrong is based on cooperating with others who share resources and power. As a cruel tyrant, Stalin was IMMORAL. PERIOD. Rational self interest is the moral and intelligent way for people to live. It begins with the rational axiom that all people have value and should (for the purpose of preserving life and being safe and happy) have equal rights and freedom. But nothing compels anyone to value another or to be rational to that degree. Nothing compels one to be civilized. Anyone can act like a savage and take the consequences. Read your bible. After his wife’s suicide in 1932 Stalin became progressively more insane and removed all the checks and balances which inform a moral society. Stalin acted like a sub-human savage and he died like the rat he was--murdered by rat poison. ___________________________ So, if people without a belief in the Christian God have no basis for knowing right from wrong (as you have repeatedly said), then what reason would anyone have for cooperating with others and respecting rights and freedoms? You made it clear that you would see nothing "wrong" with being a murderer if you did not believe in the Christian God. Because only those who believe in the Christian God have a requisite "basis for morality"--so you say. So would you "know" that murder was wrong? Do all the rest of us (the great majority of the world who are not Christians) KNOW what is WRONG? Do we have a basis for being moral? You have repeatedly said we did not. Is the only thing which allows you to be kindly and loving to family, friends, and society...the fact that you are a Christian...and not a Hindu, humanist, or Sikh?

To: Greg or e who wrote (17479)	5/16/2004 8:26:00 PM
From: average joe	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 28931

Skeptics may refuse to relent but, yes, there's evidence of Jesus outside the Bible Did Jesus even exist? The question may seem absurd, but years ago some radicals treated him as an imaginary figure. Today's experts don't take the canard seriously. But surprisingly, the issue is revived in Skeptical Inquirer magazine, which claims to examine evidence rationally as it seeks to debunk religions and hoaxes, ancient and modern. It's published by the secularist Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal. Reviewing Mel Gibson's "Passion" film, committee senior researcher Joe Nickell asserts: "Historically, apart from later Christian sources, there is virtually no evidence for Jesus' crucifixion - or even his very existence." Perhaps Skeptical Inquirer needs to be more skeptical about its skepticism. Consider: Could a non-person whose crucifixion was a non-event be seen as real, not in "later" sources but within 20 years (see Paul's early letters)? The four Gospels appeared in succeeding decades, the equivalent of 2004 books looking back at the Depression, World War II, school desegregation or the Kennedy assassination. But Nickell indicates we must reject all New Testament evidence. He doesn't explain why, but such writers typically complain that the Gospels were written by partisans and insiders. True enough, but under that standard, scholars must erase much of secular history as well. But even if all New Testament records are thrown out, nonbelievers also provided early evidence of Jesus' existence. Such references are scarce, but that doesn't surprise E.P. Sanders of Duke University, author of "The Historical Figure of Jesus" and no fundamentalist. He says "it is sometimes hard to believe how unimportant Jesus was during his lifetime, especially outside Palestine." The most important non-Christian source is "Jewish Antiquities," completed in A.D. 93 by the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus. One passage cites the execution in A.D. 62 of "the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, James by name." A longer reference to Jesus poses a famous problem. Christian and non-Christian scholars agree that it was retouched by later believers, who added pious phrases that no Jew employed by pagans would have written. But scholars say the additions are obvious. If they are deleted, Josephus provided at least these bare facts: Jesus was thought to be a "wise man" and "doer of wonderful works," attracted followers, was crucified by Pilate and started a movement that remained in existence decades later. Any records the Roman occupiers kept about Jesus would have been lost during the devastating Jewish rebellion that began in A.D. 66, Sanders figures. It took time for awareness of this tiny religious movement to reach other Romans, but three early references have survived: -Pliny the Younger was sent as imperial legate to Bithynia (in present-day Turkey) starting in A.D. 111. One of his reports to the Emperor Trajan described a policy of executing Christians who refused to curse Christ and worship Roman gods. He said believers would sing an "antiphonal hymn to Christ as God," followed by a meal. -Tacitus, who loathed the Christian "plague," recorded around A.D. 115 in "Roman Annals" that Jesus "was executed by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius." -Suetonius wrote about A.D. 120 that the Emperor Claudius banished all Jews from Rome because they were continually rioting "at the instigation of Chrestus." Historians think this misspelling of "Christ" means Suetonius mistakenly thought a troublemaker with that name lived in Rome. The comment indicates that by A.D. 49, belief in Christ had reached Rome and was dividing Jews. Nickell cites support for his skepticism from "Incredible Shrinking Son of Man" by humanist colleague Robert Price, a member of the left-wing Jesus Seminar who teaches at the Universal Foundation for Better Living seminary in Carol City, Fla. Price's seminary, founded by a Unity School minister, promotes the sort of New Thought spiritual healing Skeptical Inquirer might debunk - and treats Jesus as though he actually existed. omaha.com