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Politics : Formerly About Advanced Micro Devices -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: E. T. who wrote (188555)	5/15/2004 1:20:30 PM
From: tejek	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 1585847

"If aboriginals were to say all white men settling in Australia were to go or die, would that be racism? No. .... Are you deliberately trying to confuse these two issues, I wonder" I do find the issue confusing. Nonetheless, Hamas, which you claim is outrightly not racist, behaves in much the way the rest of the middle eastern arab countries have treated jewish people, which in my opinion is racist. They've run them out of practically every town and country, as Hamas wants to do with Jews now living in Israel. Smells, a bit like racism, doesn't it? Have Jews been persecuted in the ME? Of course........most religious groups including Muslims have from time to time. However, they have not been run out of every town and country as you suggest. To this day, there are small Jewish populations in almost every ME country. They once were much larger but many emigrated to Israel where, ironically, they faced discrimination by Ashkenazi [European] Jews. "One is fighting the occupier in a land " Not a imperialist occupier, however, but a people persecuted with historical ties to the region, who scrabbled together a home. Bull............who's telling you these stories? The definition of imperialism by Webster's: "the policy, practice, or advocacy of extending the power and dominion of a nation especially by direct territorial acquisitions or by gaining indirect control over the political or economic life of other areas" By definition, then, Israel is an imperialist. Fck em, push 'em into the sea, as the rest of the Arab world has already said and as Hamas now says. Sounds racist.* You act as if Hamas represents all the Palestinians. They are radicalized extremists just are Jerry Falwell and the religious right or a radical, left wing org. are radicalized extremists in the US neither of which represent the general population of the US.

To: E. T. who wrote (188555)	5/18/2004 5:10:55 AM
From: zonder	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 1585847

I do find the issue confusing How about you answer the question first, and then we go from there: If aboriginals were to say all white men settling in Australia were to go or die, would that be racism? Hamas, which you claim is outrightly not racist I don't know what passes in the hearts of Hamas terrorists, whether or not they actually hate all Jews everywhere on earth because of their different culture. What I am saying is that THEIR FIGHT is with their OCCUPIERS, who happen to be Jewish. I don't see Hamas going out of their way to kill Jews in Europe or America. Why? Is that because they don't know what planes are? The answer is not complex. It is not "confusing" either. ... [Hamas] behaves in much the way the rest of the middle eastern arab countries have treated jewish people, which in my opinion is racist E.T. - You are a nice guy. One who needs to familiarize himself with "logical fallacies". This one is particularly easy to spot - Racist people "run Jews out of town" and that's what Hamas wants to do as well, therefore Hamas must be racist??? That statement is a logical fallacy. I don't feel like writing a book about it to you right now, especially since it is so obvious, so please just Google "logical fallacies" and look it up. Smells, a bit like racism, doesn't it? Only if you don't know the difference between a freedom fighter in an occupied land against his occupier, and a Nazi general turning innocent people into soap because he doesn't like their culture. Not a imperialist occupier Really. A benign, nice, lovable occupier, then? but a people persecuted with historical ties to the region, who scrabbled together a home A "people" who have not been living there for a LONG time. That argument of "historical claim" is a ludicrous one. Frankly, it saddens me to see that you don't even realize that if you uphold the validity of "historical claim", you have to accept Palestinians' right of return to the place we now call "Israel", since THEY had "historical ties" there that are much fresher than those of some Russian guy who settled there with his Russian family. Would you pack up and leave back for Europe if the decendants of all those native Americans your ancestors killed or drove away were to come back and claim your cities? Historical ties - check. Persecuted people - check. Would you really go packing, or would you defend your home? If you agree with Hamas that there can't be any solution but only death for jews Of course I don't. Don't be stupid. That's another logical fallacy, by the way - attacking an argument the other person has never made. you talk as if you would do something differently. Tell me, what would that be? I would realize much sooner than those dummies that I am in a situation that is not tenable forever and would sit at the table and draw borders right now, while I still have the upper hand - i.e. the world's only superpower backing me whatever I do because it is run primarily by fundamental Christians to whom the second coming of Christ depends on Jews keeping that land and building some temple on it. First - My settlements into occupied territories are not only illegal (UN and everyone else tells me so) but also fuel the conflict. Dismantle them all. Tell my people that we are not hostile occupiers, our noble history shows we are people of culture and human compassion. That it has always been OTHERS who oppressed us, that US oppressing another people is unthinkable and will eventually destroy our self-respect. That it is our duty to protect and love OUR country, not to go destroying others' homes and keep chipping away at their land. I would take the informal Geneva Accord as a basis for the next negotiations. Draw the borders. Say, "that's your country, this is mine". A couple of friendly gestures, a sharing agreement for the water, for example. Hopefully, after a couple of generations, the animosity on both sides will have calmed down to levels where normal neighbourly relations can be established. Until then, I would keep to my hands off from their side and restrict their passage on my side. I sincerely hope Israel to soon have a leadership with the long term vision and dignity to say and do these things. Otherwise, I fear, the future of Israel is not going to be very serene. You can only push people so far before they go out of their minds and leave all hopes for their future and just think of getting YOU for what you did to them. My guess is that Israel is living the first stages of this phenomenon. There is still time to settle this issue once and for all. Soon, there might be a bloodbath. During WWII, the persecution and systematic killing of Jewish people of all ages was monstrous. It was horribly wrong. It was disgusting for most people living on this planet. There was immense sympathy all around for Jewish people, which is the main reason why they were literally given the land on which they founded Israel. This time around, if a bloodbath erupts in the Middle East and many Jewish people are killed (along with many more of their Arab neighbours) my guess is that there will not be much sympathy for them and the way they brought this tragedy unto themselves. Good luck persuading the world to give you another homeland then. There is still time. I hope they use it well.