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Politics : Idea Of The Day -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: IQBAL LATIF who wrote (46165)	5/17/2004 4:18:29 AM
From: Neil H	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 50167

"Finally they are getting it" - Brenner did make a mistake when he came into Iraq, throwing out all of the Baathist in mass. Iraqi General Urges Support of U.S. Troops May 16, 2:54 PM (ET) By KATARINA KRATOVAC FALLUJAH, Iraq (AP) - A former Saddam Hussein-era general appointed by the Americans to lead an Iraqi security force in the rebellious Sunni stronghold of Fallujah urged tribal elders and sheiks Sunday to support U.S. efforts to stabilize Iraq. Retired Maj. Gen. Mohammed Abdul-Latif rose to prominence after nearly monthlong battles last month between the Marines monthlong battles in April between the Marines and insurgents hunkered down in Fallujah's neighborhoods. "We can make them (Americans) use their rifles against us or we can make them build our country, it's your choice," Latif told a gathering of more than 40 sheiks, city council members and imams in an eastern Fallujah suburb. The siege of this city of 200,000 people, located about 40 miles west of Baghdad, was lifted when top Marine officers announced the creation of the Fallujah Brigade - a force made exclusively of former Iraqi army officers. The Marines withdrew from Fallujah into the rural hinterland and far-flung suburbs, allowing the Iraqi force to take up positions and start patrols inside the city. The brigade is expected to number about 1,500 men, many of them conscripts or noncommissioned officers under Saddam. They are expected to fight the guerrillas, although some of the same insurgents who fought the Marines last month will likely join the brigade. On Sunday, Marines of the 1st Battalion, 5th Regiment provided security for the gathering in Kharma. Latif, 66, a native of Baghdad, urged the elders to talk freely, citing the Muslim holy book, the Quran. "The Quran says we should sit together, discuss and make a decision, but let it be the right decision," the silver-haired Latif - a slim figure wearing a blue shirt and dark blue tie and pants - told the sheiks. The venue offered a rare insight into Latif's interactions and influence over Fallujah elders. As he spoke, many sheiks nodded in approval and listened with reverence to his words. Later, they clasped his hands and patted Latif on the back. Latif, speaking in Arabic to the sheiks, defended the Marines and the U.S. occupation of Iraq. "They were brought here by the acts of one coward who was hunted out of a rathole - Saddam - who disgraced us all," Latif said. "Let us tell our children that these men (U.S. troops) came here to protect us. "As President Bush said, they did not come here to occupy our land but to get rid of Saddam. We can help them leave by helping them do their job, or we can make them stay ten years and more by keeping fighting." Lt. Col. Brennan Byrne, the Marine battalion commander, said, "No truer words have been spoken here today than those by General Latif." Latif also told the insurgents to "stop doing stupid things." "Those bullets that are fired will not get the Americans out, let them finish their job here so that they can return to their country," Latif said. "Our country is precious, stop allowing the bad guys to come from outside Iraq to destroy our country." Latif, a former military intelligence officer said to have been imprisoned by Saddam and exiled, praised the former Iraqi army. "The army used to be honest until Saddam made the men turn into beasts, take bribes, betray their own country," he said. "The real army is the army that works hard to serve its own citizens, with courage and strength." After the meeting, Latif told The Associated Press that the situation in Fallujah has greatly improved, that "winds of peace" prevail in the city and the people that fled the fighting have returned. He would not elaborate on the size or current activities of the Fallujah Brigade. "Let us speak about peace," Latif said in English. "Fallujah was an open wound, now it's healing."

To: IQBAL LATIF who wrote (46165)	5/17/2004 10:00:10 AM
From: malibuca	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 50167

You are being very defensive about a scenario that is entirely credible. You said it is not people like Bush who loose goodwill of USA it is statements like the one you have written and Seymour sponsors that helps erode goodwill for USA I made a statement, in response to the Hersh link that you provided, that the US more than likely has contingency plans to neutraize Pakistan's nuclear capability if a fundamentalist regime came to power in your country. I also said that it is entirely conceivable that Israel would be a partner in such an enterprise. All of this was part of what Hersh alleged. I speculated that India could also be coopted if it came to this. It would not be in India's interests to have a nuclear fundamentalist Islamic regime as its neighbor and especially one that has fought several wars with India - but India, like Israel, will take its lead from the US. I have no first hand knowledge of whether any of this is true - and neither do you. But it would be downright irresponsible for the US not to have such contingency plans. Pakistan is in the throes of a great deal of upheaval and there have been several assassination attempts against Musharraf. What will happen if he is assassinated or overthrown is an unknown. You make a good point when you state that the actual process of such neutralization might be a lot easier said than done. Do you know that there were reports about a year or so ago that Pakistan/Musharraf had shared with the US information regarding where Pakistan had stored its nuclear weapons so that, if things went awry, the US could act promptly? I have no idea whether these reports were accurate. Given that USA is ready to accept a theocracy in Iraq I would doubt that a friendly Islamic government anywhere would not be tolerated The "stay the course" Bush administration is looking to exit Iraq - this should have been very obvious even before this statement was made. Rumsfeld's statement that a theocracy in Iraq would not be acceptable appears now - to quote Ziegler's (from Nixon days) phrase - to be "inoperative". But there is a vast difference between a theocracy in Iraq without WMD and a fundamentalist Islamic regime in Pakistan that has WMD. Why do you think that the US is so intent on ensuring that Iran does not have a stockpile of WMD? Hersh is an excellent investigative reporter who has been recognized by his peers. You may not like what he said about your country but that does not take away from his credentials. I said that the current alliance between the US and Pakistan is one of convenience and you disagreed saying From opening up of China, Seato, Cento and Budber and from 1948 it was conscious decision of Pakistan to side with USA when given a choice between USSR and USA Give me a break and stop living in the past! The alliance with Pakistan was during the heyday of communism being a threat to the US. After the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan, the US washed its hands off Pakistan - I am sure that you are aware of this. It was only after 9/11 that the US sought to renew the alliance because of Pakistan's strategic position. You may not like to hear this but the longer term strategic and economic interests of the US, in your part of the world, are now with India more so than your country. The end of the Soviet Union removed the irritant in US/India relations caused by the non-alignment policy that India had embraced. India is a democratic country, it provides an educated English speaking labor pool and is more stable. Pakistan, despite its history as part of the British Empire, has been under the rule of its armed forces for much of the time since it became independent. It has had what might be described as flirtations with democracy. Perhaps you should reflect on why democracy has not been able to take root in so many Muslim countries including your own. Musharraf has been quite bold in rejecting past failed policies and moving your country forward but he may well be ahead of his times. There is a danger in embracing change faster than the masses are willing to do - Sadat was also ahead of his times and he paid the price. Finally, I consider myself to be very well informed but by no means am I an expert on Pakistan, South Asia and the Middle East. However, I would venture to say that I know more about your part of the world than you do about the political and cultural dynamics as it pertains to the US.

To: IQBAL LATIF who wrote (46165)	5/23/2004 6:06:56 PM
From: malibuca	Respond to of 50167

you have no idea that Pak Army is not one man, it is an institution that has shown his alliance to Brits since 1857, 110 years before creation of Pakistan It is an insult to compare the Pakistani armed forces to that of Britain! If you know anything about the core philosophy of the British military, you would not make such a comment. Pakistan's armed forces imitates the more superficial traditions of the British military in terms of its officers' mess and the like but it has missed some of the core essentials! Does this excerpt sound familiar? "At the Pakistan Military Academy, the atmosphere fairly reeks of the British Raj: the cricket field, the polo ponies, the high-ceilinged mess hall with its turbaned waiters and white linen tablecloths. "We observe all the British traditions except the toast," Lt. Col. Saadat Saeed Bhutta says proudly. "And we say, 'Bismillah' " -- In the name of God -- at the start of every meal." One thing that Pakistan's military has certainly not learned from the British is that the armed forces stay out of politics and that the military is subordinate to civilian authority. The failure to absorb this important concept is why your country has had multiple military coups and martial rule almost since its inception! Once again, the armed forces of your country could learn something from the Indian armed forces that stay out of politics and accept the supremacy of the civilian government.