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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: TimF who wrote (133478)5/23/2004 3:40:43 PM
From: Bilow  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 281500
 
Hi twfowler; Re: "North Vietnam existed as a country for some time. The fact that the Vietnamese people where in two different countries ..."

Great argument, but it obviously didn't cut much mustard with the Vietnamese, LOL. For that matter, the CSA existed as a country for "some time", as did East and West Germany, the USSR, and various other political configurations that failed to match up with the ethnic realities.

Re: "It would be unusual if the North continued to try to invade the south to take control of it again if the North could not ever win anything big enough to be called a serious battle and absorbed not just disproportionate but strongly disproportionate casualties again and again while failing to defeat the South for over two decades."

It's clear that I've made my point and that you have little left to offer. Now your point is that North Vietnam suffered repeated losses? You could make the same point about the Continental Congress in what would become the United States in 1780, but our ancestors fought on.

There are few peoples on this planet that are "reasonable" in terms of how many casualties they are willing to accept in return for obtaining freedom from a foreign authority. Humans are just plain ornery when it comes to the principle that they like to live in governments led by their own kind.

As I have said before, it is not at all unusual for humans to fight hard against foreigners who are temporarily camped out in their territory. As I have said before, the odds of a bloody rebellion increase as the size of the ethnic group (total ethnic group, not only the ones in the occupied territory) increases. This is normal human behavior, and variations on this theme are present in not just recent history, but in the ancient history of this planet. As I have said before, the Iraqis will kick us out of Iraq.

-- Carl



To: TimF who wrote (133478)5/23/2004 10:46:16 PM
From: Sam  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
North Vietnam existed as a country for some time. The fact that the Vietnamese people where in two diffefrent countries doesn't mean it was one country any more then North and South Korea are one country or East and West Germany where one country during the cold war.

Nonsense.

The vast majority of Vietnamese wanted one country, saw the area as one country. The Geneva Accords of 1954 explicitly said that the demarcation line between the north and south was NOT to create two countries, and no one should infer that it did. Here is the text of the Accords, article 6 is the most relevant one:

The Final Declarations of the Geneva Conference July 21, 1954.

1.The Conference takes note of the Agreements ending hostilities in Cambodia, Laos, and Viet-Nam and organizing international control and the supervision of the execution of the provisions of these agreements.
2.The Conference expresses satisfaction at the ending of hostilities in Cambodia, Laos, and Viet-Nam; the Conference expresses its conviction that the execution of the provisions set out in the present Declaration and in the Agreements on the cessation of hostilities will permit Cambodia, Laos and Viet-Nam henceforth to play their part, in full independence and sovereignty, in the peaceful community of nations.

3.The Conference takes note of the declarations made by the Governments of Cambodia and of Laos of their intention to adopt measures permitting all citizens to take their place in the national community, in particular by participating in the next general elections, which, in conformity with the constitution of each of these countries, shall take place in the course of the year 1955, by secret ballot and in conditions of respect for fundamental freedoms.

4. The Conference takes note of the clauses in the Agreement on the cessation of hostilities in Viet-Nam prohibiting the introduction into Vietnam of foreign troops and military personnel as well as all kinds of arms and munitions. The Conference also takes note of the declarations made by the Governments of Cambodia and Laos of their resolution not to request foreign aid, whether in war material, in personnel or in instructors except for the purpose of the effective defence of their territory and, in the case of Laos, to the extent defined by the Agreements on the cessation of hostilities in Laos.

5. The Conference takes note of the clauses in the Agreement on the cessation of hostilities in Viet-nam to the effect that no military base under the control of a foreign State may be established in the regrouping zones of the two parties, the latter having the obligation to see that the zones allotted to them shall not constitute part of any military alliance and shall not be utilized for the resumption of hostilities or in the service of an aggressive policy. The Conference also takes note of the declarations of the Governments of Cambodia and Laos to the effect that they will not join in any agreement with other States if this agreement includes the obligation to participate in a military alliance not in conformity with the principles of the Charter of the United Nations or, in the case of Laos, with the principles of the Agreement on the cessation of hostilities in Laos or, so long as their security is not threatened, the obligation to establish bases on Cambodian or Laotian territory for the military forces of foreign powers.

6.The Conference recognizes that the essential purpose of the Agreement relating to Viet-nam is to settle military questions with a view to ending hostilities and that the military demarcation line is provisional and should not in any way be interpreted as constituting a political or territorial boundary. The Conference expresses its conviction that the execution of the provisions set out in the present Declaration and in the Agreement on the cessation of hostilities creates the necessary basis for the achievement in the near future of a political settlement in Viet-Nam.

7. The Conference declares that, so far as Viet-nam is concerned, the settlement of political problems, effected on the basis of respect for principles of independence, unity and territorial integrity, shall permit the Vietnamese people to enjoy the fundamental freedoms, guaranteed by democratic institutions established as a result of free general elections by secret ballot. In order to ensure that sufficient progress in the restoration of peace has been made and that all the necessary conditions obtain for free expression of the national will, general elections shall be held in July 1956, under the supervision of an international commission composed of representatives of the Member States of the International Supervisory Commission, referred to in the Agreement on the cessation of hostilities. Consultations will be held on this subject between the competent representative authorities of the two zones from 20 July, 1955 onwards.

8. The provisions of the Agreements on the cessation of hostilities intended to ensure the protection of individuals and of property must be most strictly applied and must, in particular, allow everyone in Viet-nam to decide freely in which zone he wishes to live.

9. The competent representative authorites of the Northern and Southern zones of Viet-nam, as well as the authorities of Laos and Cambodia, must not permit any individual or collective reprisals against persons who have collaborated in any way with one of the parties during the war, or against members of such persons' families.

10.The Conference takes note of the declaration of the Government of the French Republic to the effect that it is ready to withdraw its troops from the territory of Cambodia, Laos and Viet-Nam, at the request of the governments concerned and within periods which shall be fixed by agreement between the parties except in the cases where, by agreement between the two parties, a certain number of French troops shall remain at specified points and for a specified time.

11. The Conference takes note of the declaration of the French Government to the effect that for the settlement of all the problems connected with the re-establishment and consolidation of peace in Cambodia, Laos and Viet-Nam, the French Government will proceed from the principle of respect for the independence and sovereignty, unity and territorial integrity of Cambodia, Laos and Viet-nam.

12.In their relations with Cambodia, Laos and Viet-nam, each member of the Geneva Conference undertakes to respect the sovereignty, the independence, the unity and the territorial integrity of the above-mentioned States, and to refrain from any interference in their internal affairs.

13.The members of the Conference agree to consult one another on any question which may be referred to them by the International Supervisory Commlssion, in order to study such measures as may prove necessary to ensure that the Agreements on the cessation of hostilities in Cambodia, Laos and Viet-nam are respected.

SOURCE: Gravel (ed.), Pentagon Papers, Vol. 1, pp. 279-282.

vietnam.vassar.edu