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Politics : Politics for Pros- moderated -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Dayuhan who wrote (45629)5/19/2004 11:01:52 PM
From: Ilaine  Respond to of 793818
 
I’d like to hear less about whether there were WMD or not, and about how connected or disconnected Saddam was to AQ, and a good deal more about how the f*ck we plan to organize a functional government, create an army and a police force, and get out of there.

Amen, brother. On this, we can all agree.



To: Dayuhan who wrote (45629)5/20/2004 4:21:13 AM
From: Nadine Carroll  Respond to of 793818
 
Before the war, every intelligence agency suffered from a lack of hard data on Saddam's Iraq, it was a police state. So everybody was working on conjecture to some point, and no sane person would have given Saddam the benefit of the doubt at that point. What did Chalabi say that was so different from what the French and German intelligence agencies were reporting, let alone the CIA?

As for debka, some of their stuff doesn't check out but a lot of it does. They say the CW went to Syria; US intelligence confirms that a lot of something was trucked to Syria in January 2003. Maybe it was just gold bars, who knows? But we can't declare the WMD issue closed until we do know what it was.



To: Dayuhan who wrote (45629)5/20/2004 5:22:14 AM
From: LindyBill  Respond to of 793818
 
One of the best Iraqi bloggers.

IRAQ THE MODEL
Wednesday, May 19, 2004

It's about time.
Few days ago, I was riding a cap from work to my home. The driver as expected tried to start a chat. I was too tired and not in the mood to join him. There was a traffic jam that obviously annoyed him and the weather was hot as expected in a May noon. He said, "Baghdad has become impossible" this has become a usual phrase to start a conversation. It’s the synonym for the British “looks like a nice weather today”. I was becoming sick of complaints that usually start with this phrase. I said to myself, "Oh my god not another American hater" I didn’t want to reply but I thought it might help to pass time so I answered, “When was Baghdad ‘possible’?” the driver replied, “yes, life was always hard but these days they’ve become intolerable”
-Because of the Americans, you mean?

-No, of course not. Because of the difficulties in work.

-What do you mean? I know that you now charge double or triple the fees while cars and spare parts are cheaper now than ever.

-Yes, but the hours we can work in have decreased considerably because of the bad security conditions.

-What bad security conditions!? You are still afraid that someone might rob your car and get away with it in such a traffic jam??

-Of course not, but I can’t work for a late hour.

-I understand your fears but I always have known this place to be busy until midnight.

-That’s true but not in my neighborhood, so I have to go back much earlier than that

-Where do you live?

-In Sadr city.

-Oh I see, but what do you think the cause of this insecurity?

-Is that a question?? They are those thugs and thieves.

-Who are those?!

-Sadr followers.

-I agree, but I don’t understand your people there. Why do they support them!?

-Do you really believe that?? I swear to God they are no more than a couple of thousands terrorizing millions and hiding behind slogans like jihad and resistance. The whole city has got sick and tired of their doings. We just want to work, feed our children and take a break. We are tired of all this bullshit. They can’t deceive us anymore.
This idiot is taking advantage of his father’s name and we know the people who are gathering around him. Most of them are gangsters and ex-convicts with some foolish teenagers. They are anything but Muslims. Every now and then one of these cowards come hiding his face and fire against the American troops and when the Americans respond innocents get hurt.
I was encouraged by his attitude and asked:
-Why don’t you try to do something about it?

-Who says we aren’t? I’m one of the people who reported some members of the Mahdi army to the IP and now they are in prison.

-Really!? God bless you. That was brave of you. These people really belong there.

-Sure they do! Did this idiot forget who killed his father!? And who took his revenge? Could he have ever raised his voice if it wasn’t for the same people whom he’s fighting now? Well let the Iranians help him now! Believe me brother when I say that the majority of Sadr city people are grateful for the Americans. We didn’t fire a bullet at them when they entered our city. We gave them the reception of liberators and they are. Why would we fight them now!?

From my experience, I kind of believed him. I worked as a resident doctor in one of the major hospitals in Sadr city for about 6 months at Saddam’s times, and I can say that there were many lost youths there who didn’t know what to do with their lives out of poverty and oppression, and some of them ended being part of the criminal world. Yet along with this dark picture, there were always good and simple people who worked and toiled day and night for a decent life and these were the majority among those I met. Most of those were old men and women.
I witnessed one of those days a scene that I will never forget. A middle aged man was selling Pepsi on the sidewalk near the hospital where I worked, as many people there selling cigarettes and different stuff taking benefit of the high activity and traffic near the hospital and since obviously they couldn’t afford to buy or rent a store. Suddenly there was a big clamor and people were shouting, collecting all what they can and running away. It appeared that there was a patrol of city hall inspectors to watch for any violation. Everyone was gone with his or her goods except this guy who was selling Pepsi. His goods were too heavy to carry and he stood there with desperation and bewilderment on his face. The police reached to his place and the officer looked at him sternly as he said “don’t you know it’s prohibited to use the sidewalk to sell anything?” the guy was totally helpless. His face turned pale and it was as if he was going to be executed. He pleaded to the officer and said, “May god bless you Sir. I had to borrow money to buy these, and I have a family to feed. This is my first day in this job and I haven’t paid what I owe people yet. Please spare me this time so that I can pay the people their money back and I promise I’ll never do it again” he was literally crying and chocking with tears as he managed to say these words. The officer showed no sign that he even cared to hear and ordered his men to smash all the bottles. The poor guy sat there crying as he watched what seemed to be his last hope in an honest life going down the drain. He couldn’t take it anymore and shouted at them “HOW AM I GOING TO FEED MY KIDS?? Do you want me to become a thief!?” the officer looked at him shocked and said “how dare you?? One more word and you’ll never see the light again, you dog” I don’t know what happened to that man, but I would be surprised if he didn’t become a criminal.
After the war, most of the people of Sadr city were so happy; they got rid of their oppressor, they enjoyed freedom of speech and performing their religious ceremonies. Most important is that the raise in the average income opened the door for the private businesses, including the small ones, to prosper. Young men can make a good living by several means without resorting to violence or breaking the law. Things were going just fine and improving when young Sadr started his revolt. Sadr city became insecure again and businesses were damaged seriously as a result. In the early days of that revolt, people sympathized with that idiot because they loved his father, but as his followers’ behavior became intolerable and as the lives of people and their jobs were jeopardized, they lost all sympathy with him and all they want now is peace so that they can go back to their works again.
That taxi driver was not the only one from Sadr city with such opinion. Most of the people I’ve met lately expressed the same view. The only people, who don’t want Muqtada to be arrested, are the senior She’at clerics including Sistani. This may look strange when put in context with the relation they have with Iran’s puppet. He always harassed them and tried to take the lead in the streets. He even tried to force Sistani to leave Iraq. Yet, they don’t want him to be arrested. They wouldn’t care much if he was killed, in fact some of them are fighting him already (Thulfiqar organization, another name to Badr legion) but arresting him would be a serious blow to them.
Those clerics do not sympathies with Sadr out of religious sentiments. They know very well that he’s not a pious guy and they often hate each other as they compete to gain the trust and lead of the common people. This meant huge money in the past and now it means money and power as some of them have entered politics now. Why would they care so much then?
I think the answer lies in one fact. There’s an unwritten law in most of the countries with considerable She’at presence that has always considered the clerics to be immune to the law. This doesn’t apply to all clerics, but only the very senior ones. With time, this law has expanded to protect most popular clerics. Now, Muqtada is certainly not a senior cleric, but his family name and the sacrifices they gave, gave him some holy shape in the eyes of some of the She’at. If this guy was arrested, this law would not be literally broken, but the event will have the same effect. Meaning every cleric will know that he is not above the law. This will be an innovation that will shake all clerics with political ambitions. Hence all this crap about "red lines" winch is no more than a big lie that should fool no one. People will certainly be saddened and some would be outraged if the holy shrines were affected, but their care about their lives and jobs certainly is more. Most She'at Iraqis are sentimental when it comes to religion, but not to that degree. The operation should go on with great care however, and will put all those hypocrites in their right places. No more adventures and no more Mahdi armies. This revolt can actually act as an immunization against more serious ones in the future that is if it was dealt with in the proper way. The patience of the coalition has paid its fruits and Muqtada should be *arrested* but certainly not killed and now, in my opinion, is the right time.

By Ali.
iraqthemodel.blogspot.com



To: Dayuhan who wrote (45629)5/20/2004 11:25:20 AM
From: Mary Cluney  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 793818
 
<<< This is what happens when you base your development of evidence on decisions that have already been made, instead of basing decisions on evidence.>>>

You wouldn't remember this, the Kennedy's were in office around the time of your birth and as you were a toddler, but the Kennedy's were pretty much the same way.

They had their Bay of Pigs, but there was also this difference. The Kennedy's basic instincts were to play the populist card. Even though they were rich guys, they always rooted for the little guys. They were ahead of the curve on civil rights and they always fought for the working class.

As a result the mood of the country was really, really optimistic. We were heading for the moon. The mood of the western world was much mellower. When Kennedy said "Ich ein Berliner" - we were still occupying Germany and the Germans wept with Joy. Everywhere you went in Europe, they really loved us. They didn't only love us because we were big spenders (there was 4 DM to the $, 5FFR, 2US$ to the Sterling Pound), you could go into an English pub and they would be buying drinks all around. Heck, they would be making $3500 a year (if they were lucky to have jobs) and we would be making $25k to $50k per year.

If Bush were to visit Bagdad today and say "I am a Bagdadder" - I am sure they would also weep (most likely for different reasons). Even as we are heading for Mars today, there is not much joy in that.

One other important difference is in our music. We were just coming out of the Beach Boys, the Mama and the Papas, the Beatles, and heading toward Judy Collins and Joan Baez, today, they probably would not let the Beatles come into this country, if they were to be as irreverent as then and Judy Collins and Joan Baez would be branded unpatriotic traitors.

It all depends on whose ox is being gored - but I much prefer my days to yours. You didn't have to play both sides now, but a lot of people did for different reasons.



To: Dayuhan who wrote (45629)5/20/2004 2:16:08 PM
From: Sully-  Respond to of 793818
 
Saddam Had WMDs; The Left Couldn't Care Less

By Frank J Gaffney Jr.
FrontPageMagazine.com | May 19, 2004

One could be forgiven for thinking that the detonation of two "improvised explosive devices" equipped with toxic chemical agents would be seen as confirmation that there are still Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMDs) in Iraq. These events might even be seen as rebuttals to those who have derided the Bush administration for its prior inability to substantiate pre-war claims that such weapons in Saddam’s hands constituted an intolerable threat to the United States.

Unfortunately, such thinking fails to appreciate a stand-
by of Washington Beltway politics: "moving the goalposts."
Whenever the opposing team comes close to proving its
point, one simply relocates the end zone to a point out of
reach.

Rarely has this phenomenon been more in evidence than with respect to Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction. Practically everyone – members of the Coalition’s intelligence services, the United Nations, even the French, Germans and Russians – recognized that, at one time, Saddam had chemical and biological weapons and a program for building nuclear devices. Since he never satisfactorily accounted for the complete destruction of the stocks of WMDs, like those he previously used in lethal attacks on Iran and his own Kurds, the only reasonable conclusion was that they continued to exist in some form, in unknown quantity.

To prove the point, one would seem to need only to have found a few chemical and/or biological weapons. Well, that would appear to have been the incontrovertible upshot of the two recent episodes, involving sarin and mustard gas weapons. Yet the goal-post-movers’ response has been that these do not – in and of themselves – confirm the claims that Saddam still had stockpiles of these sorts of WMDs.

UN inspectors – whose return to Iraq in 2002 was only made possible by President Bush’s determination to disarm Saddam, one way or the other – shed no more light on the question. That did not, however, keep then-Chief Inspector Hans Blix from suggesting that there was no evidence Iraq still had active WMD programs.

To disprove this contention, it would seem sufficient to establish that chemical and biological production facilities continued to exist, perhaps in the form of advanced fertilizer or pharmaceutical plants which, thanks to the dual-use nature of their technologies, would allow them readily to be used for weapons purposes.

And the Iraq Survey Group, a team of specialists that has
been scouring Iraq since the fall of Baghdad trying to
ferret out and secure Saddam’s WMDs, has confirmed that,
while actual weapons have eluded them so far, the ancien
regime did indeed have the ability to produce fresh
batches of chemical and biological agents at will. Yet the
skeptics choose to ignore the reality that, in the wrong
hands, even small amounts of such toxic substances –
precisely what could be manufactured in short order by
this sort of stand-by production capability – could cause
immense loss of life.

No less studiously ignored is evidence that has come to
light that Saddam Hussein could, indeed, have handed
Weapons of Mass Destruction to terrorists bent on
employing them against the United States and its allies.
As Charles Smith reminded us in Newsmax.com yesterday,
"(F)ormer Clinton Defense Secretary William Cohen
testified that in 1998 Saddam's top nerve gas experts met
with several members of al-Qaeda in Baghdad."

Recent events underscore the danger such a combination represents. Smith notes that just a few weeks ago, a number of al-Qaeda operatives based in Iraq were caught before they were able to carry out a plot aimed at killing tens of thousands of Jordanians with poison gas. Evidently, the failure to perpetrate such an atrocity permits some to persist in the fantasy that this aspect of the WMD case against Saddam is still without foundation.

Whether partisan Democrats, antiwar zealots and rabid Bush-
haters wish to admit it or not, Saddam Hussein is guilty
as charged. We now know that Saddam once had significant
quantities of Weapons of Mass Destruction and aspired to
build more; he used them against his own people and his
neighbors; and he persisted in violating nearly two-score
UN Security Council resolutions – right up to the end of
his days in power – by concealing his actual programs and
capabilities.

It is now safe to conclude as well that Saddam bequeathed
a frightening legacy to post-liberation Iraq: the Weapons
of Mass Destruction still at large in Iraq. The
alternative thesis – namely, that the only two WMDs left
in the entire country were employed in the (fortunately)
failed IED attacks involving sarin and mustard gas
conducted in recent days – is preposterous on its face.

While we may still be in the dark as to where all of the remaining WMDs are – their specific condition and numbers – these attacks should serve indisputably to establish that there are at least some WMDs in-country and accessible to terrorists. Moreover, the Jordanian near-miss underscores the point that we should take no comfort from the fact that the status of such weapons is unknown, since some of them may wind up being used outside Iraq.

It is entirely understandable that those who opposed the
war with Iraq and/or President Bush for launching it would
try to make hay of the difficulty we have had to date
locating quantities of WMDs that former chief inspector
David Kay once said would fit in a two-car garage, while
searching a country the size of France. Now that we have
begun to find them the hard way, it behooves such critics
to stop moving the goal-posts, to recognize the validity
of Mr. Bush’s concerns and to throw their support behind
the urgent effort to find and destroy such weapons –
wherever they may be, including possibly in neighboring
Syria – before any more of them are used against
us...inside Iraq or outside.

frontpagemag.com