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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (133876)	5/25/2004 12:35:45 AM
From: cnyndwllr	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

Hawk, you say that we can use military force to liquidate "the previous repressive regime that FORCED the people to OBEY THEIR VALUES." Maybe you're right, but the point I raised was that we couldn't through the force of our will and the use of our military, transform cultures and overcome hatreds and passions that are fueled by big ideas. Why don't you want to talk about THAT concept? We've already done the "liquidating..[of the]..repressive regime," THAT'S NO LONGER AN ISSUE. Try addressing the next question; what are the limits of using OUR WILL and OUR MILITARY POWER to transform cultures, and to overcome hatreds and passions that are fueled by big ideas and that have been building for years, decades and generations? I think it's clear that you don't want to discuss this question because it's the brick wall that you can't run through. It's the place where abstract, idealistic and unrealistic dogma meets pragmatic reality and drops lifeless to the ground. It's the Waterloo of the neoconservative and the end of their march into a vast intellectual wilderness. And I suspect that's why you pretend to misunderstand the question and refuse to attempt an honest appraisal of the issues it raises. I also said that It seems that some people take a dim view of having others "educate their children" and "rehabilitate" them when their core values are set and have been set for generations. If I had any doubts about your intentional avoidance of difficult issues, it disappeared when you replied that: Sure... just like some people took serious umbrage to having their children "re-educated" into the belief that black people aren't inferior, or that whites are racially superior...Or educating them that women should have equal rights to men...But are you saying that we should be ashamed of those who fought and died for such values, or that we should not be willing to do the same for others? Surely you are able to recognize that the destruction and rebuilding of the beliefs of a religion, a culture and a nation's past occurs from within, not from outside force applied by another culture at the barrel of a gun? Don't you see the difference between a process that occurred within America, at the hands of Americans and is not yet completed after almost 150 years, and what we are attempting in Iraq through the use of tanks, air strikes and armed soldiers who don't speak the language? If you don't see those distinctions and their importance, then I'm wasting my time talking to you. Your final point seems to be that it's a good thing to use "force" in Iraq because in the end if they choose our way it's a good thing for them. After all, the US has the closest equivalent to the "true way". Well, that's fine and if you were an Iraqi you could choose that "true way." But you're not, and those in Iraq that care enough to fight and lead substantial numbers of others to fight for their chosen form of government and leadership will prevail, regardless of what YOU think they should do and what YOU think is best for them. I think that if you continue to dodge these tough "doability" issues then there's little sense in continuing this discussion. I'm not interested in hearing over and over how nice it would be if everything worked out and we achieved our goals. I'm interested in hearing ANY logical and convincing argument that could support the claim that WE can make it happen in the Mideast through military force. So, what argument can you make to support the thesis that we're not tilting at windmills? What arguments can you advance to support the thesis that events in post-invasion Iraq show the light at the end of the tunnel? And what arguments can you make to support any argument that our use of military force and our sacrifice of our soldiers will make any significant positive impact.