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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (133922)	5/22/2004 3:47:36 PM
From: h0db	Respond to of 281500

We seem to be talking past each other to some extent. You espouse noble, unselfish ideas for the betterment of the world. I detect no racism, no ulterior motives, but a great depth of feeling. I respect that. But please stop twisting what I say, and I will endeavor to return the respect. I did not say that South Korean are not better off than the North. But the dictatorship there could not have existed without American support. I did not say that Vietnam is better under the Communists than it would be if democratic. But the regime in the South was never democratic or representative of the national aspirations of the Vietnamese people. Maybe you aren't talking about Iraq when you go through these diatribes; it's hard to tell because you have a tendency to turn arguments into straw men you can knock down. There are many former totalitarian regimes that reformed without invasion. South Korea, Taiwan, the Philippines, all of Eastern Europe. I would even put China in that category but it has a way to go. Being better than the marxists and maoists is not the issue. If we are going to lead, it cannot be by making up rationales and justifications. We can't excuse our failings--be they ideological blindness, unilateralism, torture, flaunting of international law and convention--just because we are not as evil, inefficient, or corrupt as those we define as our enemies. I get my ass out of bed and do quite a bit more every day than you do pontificating on a message board. I've been to Iraq in the past year, and will go back again soon. I think that the justifications for the war have been found quite hollow. Bush could have made the arguments you have made on this board, but he did not. And those arguments would not have enabled the hawks to make the case for war last March. We will sort this mess out in terms of fixing blame and responsibility. The truth is coming out. We, God willing, will deal with those responsible, fix some of the systemic problems, and move forward. We need to focus on how to avoid losing in Iraq. Regardless of what led to war, we are there and we cannot afford to fail. We need absolute clarity and realism now about what our goals are, what outcomes are acceptable, and what we must most seek to avoid. All of the delusions, fantasies, and ideologies must be stripped away. Our good intentions and the evilness of our enemies amount to little otherwise.