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Politics : Piffer Thread on Political Rantings and Ravings -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: lorne who wrote (13624)5/25/2004 4:48:26 PM
From: tejek  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 14610
 
tejek. You said...." What I did say is that I do not see what the starting of a pre emptive war in Iraq and subsequent loss of lives and dollars has to do with the war on terrorism ".....

...."What does 9/11 and Iraq have to do with each other? ".....

Tell me something are using hindsight when you ask these questions.


Not at all.......anyone who knows the ME and understood the nature of Saddam knew that Bush was telling us BS. Saddam has always been secular......in fact, his party, the Ba'athists, was started by a Christian in Damascus that branched out to Bagdad. The gov'ts of Syria and Iraq were the two least Islamic nations in the ME. Its one of the reasons why Iran and Iraq were at such loggerheads.

In fact, OBL and Saddam disliked each other immensely. OBL is a religious ideologue....he thought of Saddam as an infidel. The only al Qaeda activity was limited to the semi autonomous Kurds in northern Iraq. And Saddam was not allowed to have much contact with the Kurds after the Gulf War.

IMO. Iraq war was as you say pre emptive. It was believed by most world leaders and the UN that sadam had WMD and 9/11 was a wake up call to pay attention to islam terrorism and what they WOULD do if they had WMD.

It was believed that Saddam still had some WMDs left......by 1998, the inspectors were sure they had destroyed at least 95% of them. They returned in 2003 to see if there were any remaining. Why didn't Bush allow them to finish their jobs?

9/11 was a wake up call but not just to be aware of the danger that terrorists posed. It was a wake up call for us to pay more attention to what our gov't is doing in foreign lands. And if you believe the terrorists are going after us simply out of envy then you are fooling yourself. You need to learn more about the games our gov't played in the late 70s and during the 80s in the ME.

War in Iraq takes the war against islam terrorism to their land. Not ours.

Firstly.....why do you continue to believe the ramblings of our gov't when there is considerable evidence to suggest that they do not know about what they are talking? There are terrorists cells all over the world including the US and Europe and don't for second fool yourself that Bush has cleaned up the cells in this country. They can strike at us whenever they have sufficient funds to pull off such a heist off. The last time it took ten years in between heists......I suspect the next time it will be much sooner. Money is pouring into the terrorists thanks to the war in Iraq.

Secondly, the war in Iraq may have taken a small aspect of the war on terror to them but the real fight is underground. Our intel needs to be like the Israeli intel, Mossad. Our intel is pitiful and its not getting half the info we need.......nor is it doing an effective job.

As for the war in Iraq, what's its done best is encouraged more and more Muslim men to join the fight against the West. Its as if we've hit an Africanized beehive with a big stick. We are in serious $h*t and we will pay for the neocons' ignorance of foreign lands for years to come.

The islam terrorists now believe that the USA will go anywhere and attack any place that is believed to be a threat to the free world from islam terrorism.

So what? The Muslim terrorists believe they are fighting the good fight against an evil invader. They have suffered for two hundred years under the western colonists. The US is just one more of them......a newer version with grander ideas.......but no less an imperialist.

There are 1.3 billion Muslims covering a third of the world with some of the highest birth rates in the world. We could fight for the next 100 years and not defeat them. Besides, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are draining us dry fiscally.

What would you be saying a few years down the road if sadam was left in power and WMD were given to islam terrorists to use on US cities.?

There are no WMDs. They were destroyed in the 90s.

Would you then use hindsight and say President Bush was negligent for not taking out sadam when he had the chance?

I will never ever forgive Bush for what he's done. He has opened Pandora's box, and long after he is gone, we will pay for his hubris and mendacity. And that's not a prophesy......its our future reality.

IMO a strong message has been sent to the world of islam and the islam terrorists operating from within their religion.

Try looking ahead instead of behind, look around the world and ask yourself if changes for the better in the world of islam are occurring because of the attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq?

Over the years islam terrorism has been getting bolder and bolder because of the lack of real response from the free world. How many times have they attacked US interests and civilians with no real response from the USA?


Wake up and smell the coffee. You've seen what one year of bad thinking has wrought. It will get worse because you and Bush are wrong. There is no other way to say it.

IMO a very very strong overdue message has been sent to the world of islam whether you like it or not.

Chasing islam terrorist around the world by secret agents undercover and eliminating them is good and is ongoing but for the most part is something we do not see nor does the world of islam and the terrorist in their midst.


Again, you are wrong......this is not the kind of fight to be done by a standing army.

If there had to be a country in the Arab muslim world that could be used to send a message to the world of islam it was/is Iraq.

President Bush may be removed as President because of his of his policies but the message he sent to the world of islam can not be removed. It will always be remembered and this is good.


No, it is bad.



To: lorne who wrote (13624)5/25/2004 4:49:12 PM
From: tejek  Respond to of 14610
 
A Gaping Hole

President Bush’s latest speech was filled with rhetorical flourishes--but it wasn’t enough to mask the gap between the words and the reality in IraqWeb-exclusive Commentary

By Richard Wolffe
Newsweek

May 25, 2004 - In years to come, historians will wonder why this Bush administration enjoyed such a strong reputation for its foreign policy for so long. After all, it was only a few weeks ago that Washington’s pundit class, spurred on by the rival presidential campaigns, declared that George W. Bush was a shoo-in as long as the focus remained on Iraq.

How times have changed. The president’s grand vision for Iraq--now known as his five-point plan--was supposed to get the full ballyhoo on Monday evening. The magical words “prime-time” were thrown around, even though the networks chose to broadcast shows like Fear Factor instead of the president’s fine words. But no amount of rhetorical flourish can mask the disarray of the administration’s policy in Iraq, and the president’s continuing struggle to speak convincingly to the American and Iraqi people.




First the strong stuff.
The president reached for the rhetorical heights by citing the horrific beheading of Nicholas Berg, as part of his latest to convince Americans that Iraq and Al Qaeda are part of one and the same War on Terror. “The return of tyranny to Iraq would be an unprecedented terrorist victory, and a cause for killers to rejoice,” Bush said. “It would also embolden the terrorists, leading to more bombings, more beheadings, and more murders of the innocent around the world.” A new and free Iraq, he explained, would represent “a decisive blow to terrorism at the heart of its power, and a victory for the security of America and the civilized world.”

It’s hard to remember how many times Bush has tried and failed to convince the world that the enemy in Iraq is part of the global terrorist plot. But it was clear within hours that he has failed to convince members of his own cabinet on this critical point. Speaking on ABC’s Good Morning America, Colin Powell strained to avoid the T-word. “These former regime elements, these anti-coalition people, as we call them, these terrorists, are determined to keep Iraq from having self-government, to keep Iraq from electing its own leaders,” the secretary of State said. “They want to go back to the past, and we can’t allow that to happen.”

As Powell well knows, there’s a wide spectrum of insurgents covered by his comments: Saddam’s loyalists, Iraqi nationalists and ultimately radical Islamists. Who is the Coalition fighting in Iraq? In spite of the president’s speech, U.S. commanders don’t know the full answer to that question. “We still don't have as good a view as we'd like to have about the nature of the insurgency and who's in charge and where the cells move and how they operate, etcetera,” General John Abizaid, commander of U.S. forces in the region, told senators last week. “It’s an intelligence-intensive task.”

Voters might not care to find out who the enemy is, as long as they’re shooting and bombing in the direction of Coalition troops. But they will care about the president’s warning, buried towards the bottom of his speech, about what is to come: “There's likely to be more violence before the transfer of sovereignty, and after the transfer of sovereignty.” That violence has already driven down support for the war and the president himself. According to the latest Washington Post poll, 58 per cent of Americans now disapprove of his handling of Iraq. Those figures are only likely to rise as the violence continues, not least because the bloodshed is directly linked to the political instability in Iraq. As General Abizaid explained last week: “The situation will become more violent even after sovereignty because it will remain unclear what's going to happen between the interim government and elections.”

There’s a reason why the Bush administration opposed for so long the suggestion that the United Nations--or Iraqi politicians--should take a formal role in running Iraq. It’s messy. You spend time negotiating with others, instead of following your instincts. And you may well find yourself, at the end of it all, with vocal and powerful critics who still disagree with you. That’s the prospect for the next seven months in Iraq. America’s critics--at the U.N. and in Iraq--will grow in stature. Inside Iraq, as political figures emerge, the process will look even messier as rival groups fight (politically) with one another and with the Bush administration. If President Bush wanted to reassure voters he was on course to a free and happy Iraq, he may find himself facing more disappointment this fall.

Then there’s the messiness of the U.S. role in Iraq after the scheduled handover of sovereignty on June 30, which is less than six weeks away. Bush suggested at the Army War College that U.S. officials in Iraq would be no different from their counterparts anywhere else in the world. “Our embassy in Baghdad will have the same purpose as any other American embassy, to assure good relations with a sovereign nation,” he explained. “America and other countries will continue to provide technical experts to help Iraq's ministries of government, but these ministries will report to Iraq's new prime minister.” Normally such technical expertise doesn’t include thousands of troops in a combat zone and billions of dollars in reconstruction money. “Our function turns from running Iraq to advising and supporting the Iraqi government,” said one senior State department official. “But of course everybody knows we are going to have to do the security because the new Iraqi government can’t take on the burden of security, and we have got the money, or most of the money.”

That kind of gaping hole between the president’s words and the reality in Iraq poses huge political risks for Bush. Many Republicans have blamed “events” in Iraq for driving down the president’s numbers. Yet those events look worse if voters are unprepared for them. In Iraq’s case, the fanfare of June 30 will give way to reports of U.S. forces and U.S. diplomats engaging with Iraqis in hostile, and sadly fatal, situations.

The Bush years weren’t supposed to be like this. This was billed as a team of heavy hitters and big thinkers, led by a president with an historic sense of mission. Compared to the supposedly feckless Clinton crowd, Bush’s foreign policy brains were re-shaping the world. There were new alliances with countries like Pakistan, new deals with the Great Powers of Russia and China. This time was supposed to be, in the words of Condoleezza Rice, the post-9/11 era - the next phase of history beyond the post-Cold War era.

Instead it looks like the Iraq era, shaped by what the president now acknowledges is an occupation. “Iraqis are proud people who resent foreign control of their affairs, just as we would,” he said on Monday. The challenge for Bush is to convince Iraqis and Americans that the U.S. is no longer resented in Iraq. It’s not clear his five-point plan can get anywhere close to that goal, any time soon.

msnbc.msn.com