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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Neocon who wrote (134609)5/27/2004 8:47:53 PM
From: Jacob Snyder  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
<The idea that a "useful morality" will have no loopholes is laughable.>

I didn't say that all rules shouldn't have any allowable loopholes or flexibility. Most should. In fact, there are very very few absolutes I Believe (capital B) in. Thou Shalt Not Kill is one of them.

It has to be an absolute, a simple rigid Rule, because otherwise, clever people like you will find innumerable exceptions to the Rule. You are such a clever monkey, and so am I, with our swollen frontal lobes servicing the needs of our reptilian midbrain.

In your example, you posed the question of whether rage at people who have done vast evil, makes murder OK. My answer is:

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900)

We thought, because we had power, we had wisdom. - Stephen Vincent Benet (1898 -1943)



To: Neocon who wrote (134609)5/28/2004 3:43:47 AM
From: Jacob Snyder  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Ok, you're not a Christian. Are you a Jew, Buddhist, Daoist, Hindu, Humanist, or Muslim? They all say the same thing: Thou Shalt Not Kill is a good rule to live by:

Moses (Jewish): Thou Shalt Not Kill - Exodus 20:13

Christ: do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also - Matthew 5:39

Buddha: #4 of the Eightfold Path is Right Conduct, which includes: no killing, no stealing, no unlawful sexual intercourse. The 4 Truths and the Eightfold Path, given by Buddha in his Sermon at the Deer Park in Benares, is the core statement of Buddhist doctrine.

Lao Tsu (Taoism): Verses 30-31 of the Tao Te Ching:

When leading by the way of the Tao,
abominate the use of force,
for it causes resistance, and loss of strength,
showing the Tao has not been followed well.
Achieve results but not through violence,
for it is against the natural way,
and damages both others' and one's own true self.
The harvest is destroyed in the wake of a great war,
and weeds grow in the fields in the wake of the army.
The wise leader achieves results,
but does not glory in them;
is not proud of his victories,
and does not boast of them.
He knows that boasting is not the natural way,
and that he who goes against that way,
will fail in his endeavours.

Weapons of war are instruments of fear,
and are abhorred by those who follow the Tao.
The leader who follows the natural way
does not abide them.
The warrior king leans to his right,
from whence there comes his generals' advice,
but the peaceful king looks to his left,
where sits his counsellor of peace.
When he looks to his left, it is a time of peace,
and when to the right, a time for sorrow.
Weapons of war are instruments of fear,
and are not favoured by the wise,
who use them only when there is no choice,
for peace and stillness are dear to their hearts,
and victory causes them no rejoicing.
To rejoice in victory is to delight in killing;
to delight in killing is to have no self-being.
The conduct of war is that of a funeral;
when people are killed, it is a time of mourning.
This is why even victorious battle
should be observed without rejoicing.

Hindu:

The aim of the sinless One consists in acting without causing sorrow to others, although he could attain to great power by ignoring their feelings. The aim of the sinless One lies in not doing evil unto those who have done evil unto him. If a man causes suffering even to those who hate him without any reason, he will ultimately have grief not to be overcome. The punishment of evil doers consists in making them feel ashamed of themselves by doing them a great kindness.
Of what use is superior knowledge in the one, if he does not endeavour to relieve his neighbour's want as much as his own? If, in the morning, a man wishes to do evil unto another, in the evening the evil will return to him. - The Hindu Kural.

"If you want to see the brave, look at those who can forgive." - Bhagavad Gita

Humanist, Deist, Enlightenment:

"We love and we value peace; we know its blessings from experience. We abhor the follies of war, and are not untried in its distresses and calamities. Unmeddling with the affairs of other nations, we had hoped that our distance and our dispositions would have left us free, in the example and indulgence of peace with all the world." --Thomas Jefferson, 1793.

Peace... has been our principle, peace is our interest, and peace has saved to the world this only plant of free and rational government now existing in it... However, therefore, we may have been reproached for pursuing our Quaker system, time will affix the stamp of wisdom on it, and the happiness and prosperity of our citizens will attest its merit. And this, I believe, is the only legitimate object of government and the first duty of governors, and not the slaughter of men and devastation of the countries placed under their care in pursuit of a fantastic honor unallied to virtue or happiness; or in gratification of the angry passions or the pride of administrators excited by personal incidents in which their citizens have no concern. -Thomas Jefferson, 1811.

Mohammed (Islam, which means surrender or peace): from the Koran:

Requite evil with good, and he who is your enemy will become your dearest friend. But none will attain this save those who endure with fortitude and are greatly favoured by Allah.

Mankind were once one nation.

If you punish, let your punishment be proportionate to the wrong that has been done you. But it shall be best for you to endure your wrongs with patience.

In the Torah We decreed for them a life for a life, an eye for an eye . . . But if a man charitably forbears from retaliation, his remission shall atone for him.

Astarte, Zoroaster, or Winnie-The-Pooh - Let me know if you worship them, and I can probably dig up something similar they said.