Silicon Investor (SI) -- The First Internet Community

STOCKTALK

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor. We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community. If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.

Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: cnyndwllr who wrote (134616)	5/27/2004 3:58:01 PM
From: Nadine Carroll	Respond to of 281500

You're correct that "big networks" require big money in the sense of the Bin Laden network but that's only one model for terrorist networks...When I refer to achieving "their aims" I mean that they can alter behaviors of entire populations, can secure tremendous publicity, and can initiate a change in actions that they want altered. All the networks that have big political aims are big networks, or are trying to become big networks. Freelancers like the DC snipers who are just acting out for attention or jollies are not terrorists in this sense. Neither was Ted Bundy or any other serial killer. Terrorists want something. It isn't just money; that's where they differ from mafias. They want political change. Terrorising a population is not their end; it's the means to their end. OBL doesn't want to terrorize populations; he wants to destoy America and set up a restored caliphate. We'll BEGIN to have a handle on the solution when we convince the world's peoples that terrorism is not necessary for them to get a fair hearing on their grievances against the major powers Oh man, are Mubarak and the various Arab dictators glad to hear you phrase the question that way. By all means, they say, let's talk about Arab grievances against the major powers - after all, Egypt was still a defacto colony only 60 years ago! The vast bulk of the Arab peoples grievances (and its the Arab world that is spawning this terrorism) are against their own sorry leaders, who have let the terrorists grow, since they deflected most the criticism outward. The major powers have not turned Egypt into the economic basket case that it is today. Or Syria. Or Libya. Or the oil states, which got the world's biggest windfall for the last 50 years. They did that their own selves. It's the ideas and the popular support that must be addressed if we're to make a long term reduction in an escalating problem with world terrorism True. However, exhorting people doesn't work very well if you are seen to be running away. Remember what OBL said about the strong horse and the weak horse. Asking whether persuasion or force (esp. in response to the terrorist's force) is necessary is like asking which half of a pair of scissors is necessary. The terrorists are fighting with weapons and ideas; so must we. Their ideas are jihad and totalitarian sharia; ours are democracy and free markets. These two sets of idea are warring for the minds of 100s of millions of Arabs, stuck in failed socialism, statism, and Nasserism.

To: cnyndwllr who wrote (134616)	5/28/2004 2:03:05 AM
From: Hawkmoon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

You're correct that "big networks" require big money in the sense of the Bin Laden network but that's only one model for terrorist networks. Hey knucklehead... What other kind are we supposed to be worried about enough to send our military into action?? Thanks for FINALLY concuring with my point (while trying to duck out of having to publicly admit it). Are you saying that we should use military force against gangs that are "terrorizing" our neighborhoods? How about some unruly child who has threatened and terrorized his mother? Send in the Marines? Dude... we're talking about BIG TIME TERRORISM.. That's ALL I'VE EVER BEEN TALKING ABOUT!!! Terrorism that's so big that it envisions challenging state actors and bringing down governments and economies. Terrorism so big that it envisions attacks that kill THOUSANDS, if not hundreds of thousands of innocent people!!! We're not talking Wackos from Waco... Or even white supremists or black panthers... Or even the SDS... We're talking about terrorist organizations that hide behind other governments who have an interest in advancing, or at least tolerating, their activities against the United States. We'll BEGIN to have a handle on the solution when we convince the world's peoples that terrorism is not necessary for them to get a fair hearing on their grievances against the major powers, when we've shown that the major powers are willing to subject themselves to fairly and justly established rules of international law, and that nations will be left to find their own paths to the future without interference in their internal affairs except for certain well thought out and well defined exceptions. Dude we acted under international law to oust Saddam from Kuwait, and left forces in Saudi Arabia to pull the "Zinni" and continue "containing" him for 10 years.. And what did we get for our efforts? Bin Laden backstabbing his Saudi handlers and deciding to launch major attacks against the US in order to make us leave the Saudis defenseless. A guy who, as a "general" of extremist clerics within Saudi Arabia and elsewhere, who attempted to destroy our financial system and bring down the Saudi regime, and wage Jihad against the West and neighboring Muslim regimes. Screw your DC snipers.. I lived through that.. In fact, the FBI analyst was murdered less than 1/4 of a mile from a good friend of mine. I saw the terror and the fear whenever I filled my gas tank.. But that's NOT the kind of terror that even remotely threatens to destroy our government, our economy, or our way of life.. I worry ONLY about the ideologies that seek to dominate the hearts and minds of millions of despairing and dispossessed youths in order to convince them to wage suicidal Jihad against major states like ourselves. And those kinds of movements require MASSIVE coordination and grass-roots support, in this case from Saudi derived oil money and Muslim charities financed by the Zakat. And sitting on our @sses and letting other totalitarian regimes dictate and coerce the future of these people.. If they want to hold a free and fair election and choose to elect a government that wants to wage Jihad, that's fine with me.. Then we don't have to worry about feeling sorry about destroying the entire country... But permitting one illegitimate regime after another, differing only in ideology and aggressiveness, to dominate their lives is not the solution. And they're never going to get a "fair hearing" when the US continues to tolerate the existence of non-accountable governments in the region (let alone on the planet). Hawk