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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Jacob Snyder who wrote (134647)	5/27/2004 8:09:34 PM
From: Maurice Winn	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Jacob, it'll be a few years before the USA will dare harangue China about human rights. Laughter would be the response. Sure, they didn't pour acid in ears or torture children in front of parents [well, not many children, though rumour has it a son was used to help soften up a father]. But although a lot of Americans act all shocked about the photos and revelations, the rest of the world isn't so naive and gullible. We are not the slightest surprised that Americans are no more moral and ethical, and actually a lot less so than many of us. The powerful and especially those with unbridled power, are notoriously barbaric in their treatment of lesser humans. That principle is as old as the hills and part of the constitutional basis for the USA = checks and balances to avoid megalomaniacs taking over with unbridled power, which we are seeing is an excellent idea. Look at how Americans used to treat negroes as an excellent demon-stration of their demonic pedigree. Look at how Americans dealt with Vietnamese; the vaunted body counts were absurd to me, way back then. They never seemed to get civilians, but had lots of dead Vietcong, until the truth about My Lai and the like oozed out. Strings of ears!! Barbarism in living memory. The USA hasn't lost a great reputation, because they never had it, other than in their own mythology. Too many of us have seen too much for too long. Did I hear on CNN today that the USA is getting into the human rights abuses by other countries too? That's good. While cleaning up their own act, they are going to harass other evil-doers as well. Pointing at the other kid who also did wrong is an old trick too. Prisoners often try to implicate their former partner in the crime to distract attention from themselves. <Our government has made, in practice, no distinction between any of the people we captured in Afghanistan. All of them, whether Taliban or Al Queda or unknown, were called illegal combatants. None have been called POWs. The only real distinctions the U.S. government makes, is based on their nationality. Taliban with U.S. passports get a trial. Taliban with British passports get released after a couple of years. If you don't have a government to speak for you, or if that government has no influence in Washington, you get a life sentence in a cage, with periodic torture (since the techniques used in Iraq were taught by people with experience at Guantanamo, it is reasonable to assume the same things are happening there).> The USA purports to be a Christian society, but a Christian's primary belief is the universality of humanity founded in love, not through dominance hierarchy and killing, which was the way of the Roman Empire [which killed our old buddy Jesus]. Yet the PNAC and Rabid Republican Right are seeking a pre-eminent USA rather than leading the world in a PNUN based on civilization, rather than militaristic power. Hypocrisy is a 21st century value, alive and well. Mqurice

To: Jacob Snyder who wrote (134647)	5/27/2004 8:56:44 PM
From: Hawkmoon	Respond to of 281500

That's a very creative interpretation, even more creative than what the Bush Administration says. Why is it "creative"? Are they the legitimate government of Afghanistan? No... Thus, unless they "contra-cize" their resistance movement, establish a military style organization, structure, and uniforms, and possess a governmental structure in exile, they cannot credibly claim to be a "liberation" movement. So, if the U.S. overthrows a government, then the soldiers we capture get re-classified as illegal combatants (= people with zero rights)???? Human rights? Or rights as established between two belligerents with regard to their respective combatant forces? AGAIN.. The Geneva Conventions ARE A CONTRACTUAL AGREEMENT. A treaty between that establishes a certain code of conduct between signators which obligates them to treat ONE ANOTHER'S military forces with equal respect in a POW status. The Russians, as I've stated previously, were not signators to the Geneva Conventions during WWII. And consequently the Germans were under no treaty related obligation to treat them well... Only 18% of all Russian POWs survived German confinement as compared to some 75% of other western belligerents in such a status. Don't blame me.. I didn't write the treaties.. And I also believe they need to be revised again in order to take into account the existence of large and powerful non-state actors such as Al-Qaeda. All of them, whether Taliban or Al Queda or unknown, were called illegal combatants. None have been called POWs. Only in so far as we had yet to fully establish that Taliban prisoners were not actually Al-Qaeda fighting in Taliban garb.. But once it was clearly established that they were Taliban, I believe we repatriated them to their respective countries of origin, primarily Pakistan. Please SHOW ME where I'm incorrect and you can support your position. How would you feel about it, if the newspaper had a picture of Ms. England, naked, with a leash around her neck, and a grinning Jihadist holding the leash? Before, or after, she permitted herself to be photographed doing the same to an Iraqi prisoner?? But what about an American civilian, apparently looking for work in Iraq, being beheaded for NO REASON? Did Ms. England behead anyone? Did she kill anyone in her charge? What about that American soldier, Keith Maupin, who's been held hostage for the past two months? What is his current location? I wonder if he still has his head? What about Daniel Pearl, a newspaper reporter? He lost his head as well... This is going to be a no-holds barred struggle with an insanely socio-pathic enemy who does not discriminate between civilians and soldiers; POWs or hostages... Unfortunately, our servicemen have pretty much counted on the fact that, if captured, they are going to be tortured and killed.... And that was WAY BEFORE Abu Ghraib ever came public. And you know something Jacob? Should you or I ever fall into their hands, they're going to do the same to us. We are infidels to them... Sub-human barbarians fit to be slaughtered in the name of Allah in order to promote their militant Jihadist agenda.. And they could care less about stomping on whoever stands in their way, moderate muslim, Christian, or pacifist... We're all the same to them.. An obstacle to fulfilling the "will of Allah". And you'd better get a tight grip on that reality Jacob.. The Islamo-Fascists don't think like you or I.. The color of the sky in the world they live in is Crimson with a crescent moon.. Hawk