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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Bilow who wrote (137863)	6/24/2004 6:44:32 PM
From: Rascal	Respond to of 281500

You were gone a long time. Somehow, it looks like your logic may have been sacrificed to ideology and rationalization. Perhaps you have been rethinking some things. A personal loss.OR Not. Rascal @BodySnatchers.com.

To: Bilow who wrote (137863)	6/24/2004 6:50:39 PM
From: cnyndwllr	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 281500

Hello Carl. You write; Even you, who are realistic about what the situation in Iraq is now, believe in the fantasy that it was possible to "get in and get out cleanly". I have little doubt that Kerry shares your belief. I'm sorry I didn't make my point more clearly. I shouldn't have said, "get in and out cleanly," I should have said, "get in and out a lot more cleanly than we could at any point thereafter." The reasons that made me believe that the Iraqi invasion and occupation were such huge mistakes are the same reasons that make me believe we CANNOT achieve even the more modestly stated goals that we've evolved too. In the meantime, of course, the damage intensifies. Getting out "more cleanly" and "more quickly," while not undoing the damage, would at least have lessened the final human and financial toll and decreased the amount of world and Arab approbation that will linger following our "adventure in Iraq." The "getting out" could have been better accomplished by bringing in the U.N. early, allowing the world's nations more free access to the Iraqi markets, including reconstruction and oil, through the auspices of the U.N. and setting a one-year withdrawal date. This, combined with leaving the Iraqi military primarily intact and under the authority of U.N. management, could have been a way out with face. Or maybe not, but at least it would have left the Iraqis with some semblance of a military and it would have crushed the suspicion that the U.S. was there for colonial purposes. I suspect that those steps were NOT taken because we WERE there for semi-colonial purposes. I, therefor, disagree with your statement that "[f]irst, you should be willing to admit that Bush's original plan was to get our troops quickly out of Iraq." I do agree that Bush planned on getting the majority of our troops out of Iraq within a few months. This was part of the tooth fairy ignorance of the "open arms and flowers from the Iraqi sheep" crowd's thinking. The intent to maintain a powerful military presence based in Iraq and to assure control of the flow or oil from the region was, however, in my opinion an underlying and material basis for the invasion. That continuing goal is one that we are, I believe, struggling mightily to preserve with our talk of "continuing to support our Iraqi friends," and with all of our under the surface political machinations to assure friendly (puppet) Iraqi rule. As far as all the items of concern you list with respect to what could, and would, have gone wrong if we'd left early, they still can, and probably will, come to pass. In our efforts in Iraq we thought we were damming up a small stream but it turned out to be a mighty river, and no matter how hard we try to stem the flow, the dam will burst and sweep away our tiny ambitions. As far as Kerry's likely failings; who knows. One thing I do know is that the guy we have now has dug the hole and he's not about to admit that it's no gold mine, or should I say "gusher." One of the other things I've learned in life is that when it comes to vision and judgement, you either have it or you don't. While experience can hone inherent skills, the talent must be there. Events would indicate that Bush got too little of the judgement and the necessary vision, and that isn't going to change.