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Politics : Stockman Scott's Political Debate Porch -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Jim Willie CB who wrote (51366)7/20/2004 1:00:08 AM
From: Proud Deplorable  Respond to of 89467
 
Oral Roberts and his fund raising under God's penalty did harm
Jim and Tammy did irreparable harm
where the Sam Hill is Billy Graham in all this?
Pat Robertson is a Christian hack who occasionally will share something deep, but for the most part is shallow politically and one-dimensional


all part of Babylon the Great....the world empire of false religion.



To: Jim Willie CB who wrote (51366)7/20/2004 8:50:05 AM
From: stockman_scott  Respond to of 89467
 
Clerics Resist Bush Strategy to Seek Aid of Churchgoers
____________________________

By Alexandra Alter
Miami Herald
Sunday 18 July 2004

A 22-point plan by the Bush-Cheney campaign to marshal support from churchgoers has met resistance from some religious leaders.
As the Bush-Cheney campaign mounts an offensive to solidify a religious base for the November election, the Episcopal bishop of Southeast Florida has joined a chorus of religious leaders denouncing the campaign's plan to obtain church directories for electioneering purposes.

To Bishop Leo Frade, the Bush-Cheney strategy violates the separation of church and state.

"Handing over names for partisan politics to any party would be an infraction of our tax-exempt status as a religious institution," said Frade, who heads 82 Episcopal churches in Miami-Dade, Broward, Palm Beach, Monroe and Martin counties.

Frade, who was born in Cuba and came to the United States in 1960 as a college student, went further in a July 2 diocesan letter.

"I'm alarmed by any suggestion of providing the names of church members to any particular political group," he wrote. "I saw this request made by Fidel Castro at the beginning of his regime, and his persecution of churches that refused."

Frade's warning echoes other religious leaders who have decried the campaign's detailed 22-step program, outlined in a document given to thousands of campaign volunteers across the country. The memo lists 22 duties for "coalition coordinators," including:

By July 15, 'Host a coffee/pot luck dinner/`Party for the President' with church members."
By July 31, "Send your Church Directory to your State Bush-Cheney '04 headquarters or give to a BC04 Field Rep."
By Aug. 15,"Recruit 5 more people in your church to volunteer for the Bush Cheney campaign."
Cries of Protest
Cries of protests are coming not just from mainline churches and civil liberties groups. Christian evangelical leaders say such activities violate the trust of congregations and could jeopardize churches' tax-exempt status.

"I'm appalled that the Bush-Cheney campaign would intrude on a local congregation in this way," Richard Land, president of the Southern Baptist Convention's Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, said recently in a statement, noting that such efforts would likely 'rub a lot of pastors' fur the wrong way."

The Bush-Cheney campaign said last week that it would move ahead, despite the backlash.

"Of course we're moving forward," said Reed Dickens, a campaign spokesman. "The social conservatives and the evangelicals are an incredibly valuable and active part of our grass-roots base. Everything we're doing is in full compliance with the law."

Dickens said the campaign is enlisting volunteers, not pastors. But religious and civil liberties groups have cautioned congregations against cooperating.

Rabbi Mitchell Chefitz of Miami's Temple Israel said his congregation had been warned against becoming entangled in partisan politics by the American Jewish Committee, a national Jewish organization, which sent a letter protesting electioneering in houses of worship to the chairman of the Bush-Cheney campaign on June 4.

"Temple Israel is very careful not to take sides on behalf of any particular parties," Chefitz said. "If the candidates are looking to the churches for mailing lists and for the organizing space, then it confuses the separation between church and state."

The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops has not issued a statement on the campaign document.

Threat to IRS Status
The Rev. Barry Lynn of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, a watchdog group in Washington, said the Bush campaign is inviting churches to endanger their Internal Revenue Service status by appearing to endorse a particular candidate. "The Bush-Cheney efforts to involve churches in partisan politics are unparalleled in history," Lynn said. "I would hope that there's not one pastor in this country who would cooperate."

Scholars say that while the campaign appears to be overreaching, enlisting voters in churches is nothing new. "Churches are magnets for politicians during the election cycle," said Melissa Rogers, visiting professor of religion and public life at Wake Forest University Divinity School in Winston-Salem, N.C. "They know that they can find a captive audience and one that is likely to go to the polls and vote."

Both parties have sought endorsements from pastors and addressed church audiences, Rogers said, noting that Democratic candidates traditionally addressed black congregations, which tend to vote Democratic.

"This had been standard operating procedure in African-American churches for quite some time," said Luis Lugo, director of the nonpartisan Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life. "It is fairly new in conservative white evangelical churches."

Dos and Don'ts
Churches can hold voter registration drives, issue nonpartisan voting guides and even invite politicians to speak, provided they offer equal access to both candidates - all without risking their tax-exempt status.

But endorsing a particular candidate or raising money for a campaign poses a clear violation of IRS regulations, said John Whitehead, president and lead attorney of the Rutherford Institute, a civil liberties organization that recently issued guidelines on churches and political involvement.

While the Bush-Cheney document doesn't mention endorsements or fundraising, it could lead to a violation if volunteers use church property or funds in support of political activity, said Milton Cerny, a tax lawyer in Washington and former IRS agent.

Legal risks aside, most churches don't want to politicize their houses of worship, Rogers said: "They don't want to create partisan division, because that can tear a church apart."

-------

truthout.org



To: Jim Willie CB who wrote (51366)7/20/2004 11:47:04 PM
From: coug  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 89467
 
Thank you for the response JW,

But I am not talking about religion and how they define good and bad, organized religion I mean.. Unless you are talking about the "Farmers Almanac" <g>

almanac.com

For I look to the sun and moon for my guidance..

What I am talking about is the real difference between good and bad people, as defined by their ACTIONS.. Many times, too many times, unfortunately, they hide their intent, rationalize their actions behind organized religion, ALL OVER the world..

None is better or worse than any other.. What counts is the people behind them, And unfortunately that is what hurts..

There are many roads for me to get to Spokane from here, and none is better than the other, except for the weather.. And then I change my religion (road) if needed.. <g>

Expediency, always expediency with MANY religious (road) types.. <g>

c



To: Jim Willie CB who wrote (51366)7/21/2004 6:37:37 AM
From: stockman_scott  Respond to of 89467
 
Comments on the Fed testimony - Dave Lewis
________________________

Dave Lewis
CHAOS-ONOMICS
chaos-onomics.com
Jul 20

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:17

I extend my apologies to readers for a long, unannounced absence from the screen. A succession of golf tournaments flowed into the annual family pilgrimage to the Adirondacks and finally a decision to purchase a new PC have kept me otherwise occupied. While I still have a few summer projects to complete, I plan to devote more time to the site from mid August on.

I decided to jump back onto the screen a bit earlier than originally planned (I have yet to migrate all the necessary files to my new PC) after reading the latest Fed testimony to Congress. Oddly enough, I forgot to pack a few books for my trip north and was resigned to re-reading James Billington's Fire in the Minds of Men, an examination of the ideological themes of the revolutions of the late 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries . Upon my return, I came across two revolutionary shots across the bow; articles by Morgan Stanley's Stephen Roach, The World's Biggest Hedge Fund, and the UPI's Martin Hutchinson, Life after Greenspan. It seems to this observer that the natives, in economic circles, are getting a bit restless.

Let's start with Roach's perspective; Unfortunately, the role of the US central bank goes beyond benign neglect. Over the past several years, the Fed actually has been quite aggressive in arguing why excesses are not bad. That was the case when it repeatedly justified the equity bubble on the basis of the so-called productivity renaissance of the New Economy. It has also been the case when the Fed has argued that America is not suffering from a debt problem, nor a twin deficit financing constraint. By serving as a cheerleader when financial markets are going to excess, the Fed is losing its credibility as an objective observer. It is no longer the tough guy that relishes the role of "taking away the punchbowl just when the party gets going" -- to paraphrase the legendary mantra of former Fed Chairman William McChesney Martin. By condoning excesses, the Fed, in effect, has become a stakeholder in the carry trades it spawns. Investors, speculators, income-short consumers, and financial intermediaries couldn't ask for more. It's the ultimate moral hazard play that that has turned the world into one gigantic hedge fund.

Gee, Stephen, tell us what you really think

Mr. Hutchinson is somewhat more subdued; It is therefore likely that in January 2006, a new Fed chairman will be struggling with a renewed bout of price inflation, being forced to push short-term interest rates higher than the state of the economy would suggest, which in turn will produce a sluggish economy or even a recession, and an unpopular Fed. At that point, whoever is appointed may wonder whether Alan Greenspan's 18 1/2-year Fed chairmanship, with the Fed chairman acquiring unprecedented market credibility, has really been worth it. Indeed, the heretical thought may arise: is huge market credibility for an inevitably fallible Fed chairman a good thing?

Contrast the views of these gentlemen who both foresaw the inevitable crash of the tech bubble and current swoon of the US$, two forecasts which eluded Mr. Greenspan's crystal ball, with the views of the Fed Chair; Economic developments in the United States have generally been quite favorable in 2004, lending increasing support to the view that the expansion is self-sustaining. Not only has economic activity quickened, but the expansion has become more broad-based and has produced notable gains in employment. The evident strengthening in demand that underlies this improved performance doubtless has been a factor contributing to the rise in inflation this year. But inflation also seems to have been boosted by transitory factors such as the surge in energy prices. Those higher prices, by eroding households' disposable income, have accounted for at least some of the observed softness in consumer spending of late, a softness which should prove short-lived.

Before considering these opposing views, let me explain my opening quote. I opened with the passage from Genesis because of an interpretation of the scripture I found enlightening. To wit, to think that you know good and evil just by looking (or sometimes more lethal, to think that other people know good and evil just by looking) is to invite mental death or, in other words, once you think a thing good or bad, the mental process ends. One of the aspects of current popular economic dogma I find unhelpful is this fixation on the goodness of badness of a report, development or even economy as a whole. Mr. Greenspan's assertion that economic developments have been quite favorable begs the question, for whom? for how long? and most importantly how do you define favorable? This doesn't seem like science to me, but rather, as Mr. Roach opines, cheerleading.

Economics, at least if it aims to be a study of the patterns of change in methods of resource allocation in societies, and their effects, should be no more inclined to denote a change "good" than a physicist should denote the transition of water from liquid to solid, "good." Rather, if one would prefer to see things in some causal chain, one focuses instead on, in the latter case, to name a few, the amount of heat required to inspire the change, or the amount of time, relative to the ambient temperature, that the water remained in vapor form. In the economic frame of mind, instead of thinking the economy is good, one might wonder what caused it to exhibit the current traits, and what historically has occurred when similar causes have engendered similar effects. In my view, and Mr. Hutchinson's the effect of the policies which have brought the US economy to this pass, given the elastic currency of the Fed, is either inflation, if the Fed stays behind the curve, or a wrenching depression if they get the nerve to invert the curve.

Delving a bit further into the notion of good or bad, in my view, economies per se are never one or the other. The subject of study is the transfer of resource control, and subsequent use, over time. There will always be winners and losers. Even in the go-go days of the late 90s, not everyone thought the US economy good. Indeed, I know a few stock brokers who now bemoan the late 90s they used to applaud because it deluded them into expanding their balance sheets beyond their eventual ability to repay. What was thought to be all good, became something else-a cautionary tale to those in the real estate and mortgage broker industry. All of which brings me back to the hanging question from Mr. Greenspan, for whom has the economic developments in the first half of 2004 been favorable? Certainly not for everyone. More importantly, will the beneficiaries of the "favorable developments" come to rue them as certain beneficiaries of the previous windfalls have come to rue theirs?

So where does Fire in the Minds of Men fit into the mix, you might be wondering, if that is, you have managed to wend your way this far down the page? One of the elements of the book was the cyclical falling away of the intellectual backing of policy leaving only apologists in their wake. More and more in the mainstream of economic thought, I see fewer and fewer defenses of the Greenspan strategy. More interesting still, the critiques, which used to more subtle, are becoming quite direct. For many years now, Greenspan has been telling all who would hear that things are good, but the crowd of listeners shrinks as his forecasts fall short. One wonders how much longer it will be before a child, whose parents have fueled up their car with $4.00 gas shouts, hey, the funny looking dude with glasses has no clothes! I want to see a real economist!

chaos-onomics.com



To: Jim Willie CB who wrote (51366)7/21/2004 6:42:55 AM
From: stockman_scott  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 89467
 
Monetizing Envy and America’s Housing Bubble

news.goldseek.com