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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: cnyndwllr who wrote (141122)	7/21/2004 12:59:38 PM
From: GST	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

I agree, I think it was an "opportunity knocks" war, based on exploiting the emotion of 9/11. As for this part: <<"Anyone with empathy and an understanding of the tragic suffering and loss that inevitably occurs when soldiers get into a shooting war would have closed all the loose ends BEFORE invading.">> it is a matter of character. Perhaps if Bush had served in Vietnam instead of playing at being a pilot half a world away from the battle, while working on political campaigns, he would have had a better idea of what was involved. It really is a matter of character.

To: cnyndwllr who wrote (141122)	7/21/2004 1:15:17 PM
From: Nadine Carroll	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 281500

That leaves me believing that Bush "hurried" to war because he thought, I think correctly, that if we waited the justifications the Bush Administration put forward to gather support for the war would begin to crumble under the weight of the facts. No, he "hurried" if that was the word because his enemies were trying to drag him down in the UNSC quicksand, and time was on their side, not his. You're making a simple thing too complex. First the decision was made that Saddam was too dangerous to leave alone while sanctions collapsed. That is, the upfront decision was made that the war was worth doing. Everything else follows. Second, it became of question of how do you sell it? The WMD question was advanced as the sole reason, which turned out a big mistake. The WMD really in question was Saddam himself, what he had done before, what he was doing now, and what he was likely to do once sanctions were off. Third, the question was, when do you do it? For political reasons, it couldn't be in an election year, so it had to be before. The question then became, with or without the UN, and Bush was convinced, 'with' which also turned out to be a big mistake, since Colin Powell (whom I remain very unimpressed with) failed him at the clinch. Note that, far from a "rush" to war, the runup took 14 months, giving Saddam ample time to make his plans and dump incriminating evidence. Ask yourself, what would have happened if Bush had done what you wanted, and waited for more UN inspections? It would have taken 6 or 8 months, the Iraqis were only giving pretend cooperation, and that only because they had an American army on their border. (Do you realize what shape that army would be in after sitting the whole summer in 130 degree tents in Kuwait doing nothing? I know they're pros, but why don't you try it for just a few days and see how your morale holds up.) The UN "inspectors" would have found nothing, and the French and Russians would have had even more ammo to drag the US down in the UNSC morass and prevent war, which is what Saddam expected to happen. Score: French 1 Russians 1 Saddam 1 US 0 Meantime the Iraqis would have continued to fill mass graves, and Saddam would have continued to train terrorists at Salman Pak, and who knows what else he would have feeled emboldened to do after his great "victory"? The Great Arab Leader, The Great Arab Defier of the Great Satan, I can just see him parading in triumph at the Arab League. Any question of serious reforms in the Arab world would have been off the table for another generation.

To: cnyndwllr who wrote (141122)	7/21/2004 2:31:54 PM
From: Sig	Respond to of 281500

The most important step in any human achievement is the first one, that of making the effort. Maddam Curie- Understanding radiation. The Wright brothers- controllable flight Ford- mass produced cars. Another example would be the hugely expensive Manhattan project, while not knowing for certain the results But if we had not tried , made the effort, the Russians would have employed many more of the German scientists and developed and atomic bomb first. With history making consequences. The many resolutions of the UN concerning Iraq, including 1441, said that Iraq was not complying, and that little progress was being made despite the sanctions and the no-fly zones. The final word, 'serious consequences', must have meant something other than one more resolution. Renewed inspections would not have been 'serious consequences' The serious consequence that ensued was a statement from the US- comply now we will force compliance Militarily. usinfo.state.gov Saddam did not comply despite 5 more months to comply, or just to say he would comply. And therefore the US made an effort, a powerful, no- backing -down start- a 5 Carriers in the Gulf start, a 2500 cruise missiles per day start. And Saddams forces crumbled and ran to hide in the cites. As a result of that effort many new discoveries are being made. The mass graves , the 25 buried aircraft, the corruption in the UN fund collection, the pay-offs by Saddam to over 200 businessmen and politicians via million barrel oil allotments, and the rot in the public infrastructure , hospitals, schools, utilities, and oil production equipment. There will be many more positive results of the effort, but I wont list them here because of a profound lack of interest in any other question than whether Bush lied or did not lie, or whether somebody got killed. Sig