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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Berry Picker who wrote (38148)7/23/2004 12:43:47 AM
From: Greg or e  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 39621
 
I see you have not mellowed with time. Of course when your case is so weak there is nothing left to do but resort to name calling.

My main point (which you ignored) was that a verse about Prophets does not apply to the Apostles as you claim it does.

But even if it did; many of the apostles did not die in Jerusalem and since only Paul and Peter were martyred in Rome it can hardly be a Catholic conspiracy. The more logical assumption is that you are wrong in your interpretation.

"Andrew preached in Asia Minor, modern-day Turkey, and in Greece and was crucified on an “X”-shaped cross. It is known today as St. Andrew’s Cross.

Philip had a far reaching ministry in Carthage North Africa and in Asia Minor. He converted the wife of a Roman proconsul who retaliated by having Philip arrested, scourged and thrown into prison. Afterwards he was crucified at Heliopolis, in Phrygia A. D. 54
Simon the Zealot was ministering in Persia, and was killed after refusing to sacrifice to the sun god. Mark was dragged to pieces by the people of Alexandria."


I don't deny that what Jesus says is true, in fact I affirm it. What I do question is your interpretation and particularly your goofy application. You are the one who is tied to a wooden literal translation and all I am doing is pointing out that you are only literal when it suits your purpose. My pointing out the apparent contradiction that results from your reading of these two texts is designed to show you the foolishness of ignoring context. history, and sound hermeneutic principals. Don't get mad and kick your dog, smarten up!

"for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem."

Hebrews 13
12And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.



To: Berry Picker who wrote (38148)7/23/2004 2:30:40 AM
From: Greg or e  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 39621
 
<<<"Where else was a prophet of God murdered?">>>
Let's grant for the sake of argument your assertion that Paul was one of the Prophets who could not have been killed anywhere but "in Jerusalem".

Here is a little history lesson for you from Philip Schaff
bible.ca

"<i<But some fanatical Jews, who bitterly bated him as an apostate and a seducer of the people, raised an uproar against him at Pentecost; charged him with profaning the temple, because he had taken into it an uncircumcised Greek, Trophimus; dragged him out of the sanctuary, lest they should defile it with blood, and would undoubtedly have killed him had not Claudius Lysias, the Roman tribune, who lived near by, come promptly with his soldiers to the spot. This officer rescued Paul, out of respect for his Roman citizenship, from the fury of the mob, set him the next day before the Sanhedrin, and after a tumultuous and fruitless session of the council, and the discovery of a plot against his life, sent him, with a strong military guard and a certificate of innocence, to the procurator Felix in Caesarea.

Here the apostle was confined two whole years (58–60), awaiting his trial before the Sanhedrin, uncondemned, occasionally speaking before Felix, apparently treated with comparative mildness, visited by the Christians, and in some way not known to us promoting the kingdom of God.417

After the accession of the new and better procurator, Festus, who is known to have succeeded Felix in the year 60, Paul, as a Roman citizen, appealed to the tribunal of Caesar and thus opened the way to the fulfilment of his long-cherished desire to preach the Saviour of the world in the metropolis of the world. Having once more testified his innocence, and spoken for Christ in a masterly defence before Festus, King Herod Agrippa II. (the last of the Herods), his sister Bernice, and the most distinguished men of Caesarea, he was sent in the autumn of the year 60 to the emperor. He had a stormy voyage and suffered shipwreck, which detained him over winter at Malta. The voyage is described with singular minuteness and nautical accuracy by Luke as an eye-witness. In the month of March of the year 61, the apostle, with a few faithful companions, reached Rome, a prisoner of Christ, and yet freer and mightier than the emperor on the throne. It was the seventh year of Nero’s reign, when he had already shown his infamous character by the murder of Agrippina, his mother, in the previous year, and other acts of cruelty.

In Rome Paul spent at least two years till the spring of 63, in easy confinement, awaiting the decision of his case, and surrounded by friends and fellow-laborers "in his own hired dwelling." He preached the gospel to the soldiers of the imperial body-guard, who attended him; sent letters and messages to his distant churches in Asia Minor and Greece; watched over all their spiritual affairs, and completed in bonds his apostolic fidelity to the Lord and his church.418

In the Roman prison he wrote the Epistles to the Colossians, Ephesians, Philippians, and Philemon.

6. a.d. 63 and 64. With the second year of Paul’s imprisonment in Rome the account of Luke breaks off, rather abruptly, yet appropriately and grandly. Paul's arrival in Rome secured the triumph of Christianity. In this sense it was true, "Roma locuta est, causa finita est." And he who spoke at Rome is not dead; he is still "preaching (everywhere) the kingdom of God and teaching the things concerning the Lord Jesus Christ, with all boldness, none forbidding him."419

But what became of him after the termination of those two years in the spring of 63? What was the result of the trial so long delayed? Was he condemned to death? or was he released by Nero's tribunal, and thus permitted to labor for another season? This question is still unsettled among scholars. A vague tradition says that Paul was acquitted of the charge of the Sanhedrin, and after travelling again in the East, perhaps also into Spain, was a second time imprisoned in Rome and condemned to death. The assumption of a second Roman captivity relieves certain difficulties in the Pastoral Epistles; for they seem to require a short period of freedom between the first and a second Roman captivity, and a visit to the East,420 which is not recorded in the Acts, but which the apostle contemplated in case of his release.421 A visit to Spain, which he intended, is possible, though less probable.422 If he was set at liberty, it must have been before the terrible persecution in July, 64, which would not have spared the great leader of the Christian sect. It is a remarkable coincidence that just about the close of the second year of Paul's confinement, the celebrated Jewish historian, Josephus, then in his 27th year, came to Rome (after a tempestuous voyage and shipwreck), and effected through the influence of Poppaea (the wife of Nero and a half proselyte of Judaism) the release of certain Jewish priests who had been sent to Rome by Felix as prisoners.423 It is not impossible that Paul may have reaped the benefit of a general release of Jewish prisoners.

The martyrdom of Paul under Nero is established by the unanimous testimony of antiquity. As a Roman citizen, he was not crucified, like Peter, but put to death by the sword."

You see Brian there are no counter claims that Paul was killed in Jerusalem. If your views were true then there would be at least some historical evidence. What is true for the death of Paul is even more certain in the case of the supposed return of Christ in 70 A.D.. The fact is that you are unable to produce even one source from history that would verify your claim. If that does not make you re-examine your views then nothing resembling reason will have any effect on you.