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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Neocon who wrote (142122)7/30/2004 5:59:43 PM
From: Ilaine  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
Neocon! The Mongols did not build an empire? Shame! At its height, the Mongol empire stretched from Korea to Hungary.
lacma.org

The Romans mostly synthesized? Oh, again, for shame. They had so many inventions that they developed a patent system.
legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com

And the Arabs only "invented algebra"?
mitpress.mit.edu

Three lashes with wet noodles and I sentence you to watch the History Channel and PBS more often.



To: Neocon who wrote (142122)7/30/2004 7:12:27 PM
From: spiral3  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 281500
 
Medicine has been on the level of hit or miss, mostly miss, for centuries. It is only in the modern world that we have scientific validation of drugs and techniques. I do not know why you think the Egyptians were good at it, but if you could show me some real evidence, I would be interested. Whether Persia ended slavery or not, it was a common practice until a couple of centuries ago, and still exists in backwaters not much touched by modern sensibilities. Whatever enlightenment Buddha might have brought, it had to do with escaping the Wheel of Rebirth, and not much else..

I know nothing about Egyptian medicine or Persian slavery, but actually, more clearly stated, the Buddhas enlightenment had to do with escaping the cycle of birth and death. As for it being not much else Let me ask you something Neocon. Do you believe in God. Do you believe in Jesus and if so what do you think he was on about, do you think that not much else is an apt description. To call this not much else is a great slur on humanity imo. Your apparent ignorance of the non material dimension to life makes me wonder how you can ever have a straight thought about bin laden himself.

Science did not, per se, exist until about the 16th century. Science cannot be divorced from the scientific method…. What we call science was either part of philosophy, and mainly speculative, or it was part of natural history, and a fairly primitive collection of observations about the natural world.

If you’re going to only recognize science as starting with the western discovery of science then all this does is show how closed your mind really is. If you think that compartmentalizing things into science, medicine, philosophy, natural science etc makes it advanced just because, then so be it I probably can’t convince you otherwise except to say that that your conception at root is an artifact of symbolic culture, notably language. If you think that the only way to gain knowledge and understanding is through the application of a strictly materialistic worldview and thereby via a strictly materialistic science, then I sorry for you and urge you to expand your horizons. For example, forget about Egypt, but take what could broadly be called “Chinese Medicine”. 300 years before Christ these people has so much shit figured out that it’s taken the west all this time just to figure out a way of scientifically measuring it, from within our own paradigm, what those cats were going on about. I can assure you that if things like acupuncture and yoga did not work for people, ie were not true, then the market for them would not exist in the States on the scale that it does, but it does and it’s growing. Perhaps you could recognize now how thoroughly modern and scientific some things were even before the 16th cent, and it is the analytical thought that ST alludes to that made the discoveries and made the Empire in the first place, so for eg from 2000 years before the 16th cent you could ref The Yellow Emperors Classic of Internal Medicine, while on the other hand a few hundred years later, the Buddha, relinquished Empire, which he thought was not much, and gained freedom.

wrt your diss of the buddha's efforts, and the nexus between science and religion, one of the things that makes the Dalai Lama modern, and interesting to me is the fact that he is eagerly following western advances in medicine and in the various cognitive sciences, and has welcomed any scientific evidence that would run contrary to buddhist conceptions, for if something he believes is contradicted by modern science he wants to be the first to know about it. Instead what is happening is that many scientists are beginning to see the appropriateness and startling accuracy of buddhist metaphor as they discover how things work. To this end he has been supplying monks to testing facilities in the US and holding meetings in Dharamsala with top chaps from the west drawing them from various specialized fields to help discover and corroborate what is known, and what is known about how we see or describe or know things. The line you draw at the 16th cent is a purely theoretical, arbitrary construct, a division in your own mind.



To: Neocon who wrote (142122)7/31/2004 3:38:51 PM
From: marcos  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Strong points on empire, Neo .... certainly apply to the british one, which was established almost by accident, there never being a plan to do so, only a bit-by-bit ratcheting into control of various areas, always to forestall control by some other entity perceived less amicable to civilisation [read, 'commerce'] .... it was mostly just the filling of a power vacuum, and always with great reluctance on the part of many at home, for every Palmerston there was a Gladstone pointing out the costs and risks .... not that glorious at the time either, it was only later that the pomp and circumstance of Victorian-era style were developed

People don't like being ruled by those from 'away' .... come to that, we don't like being ruled by anybody, and now there is increasing expectation of enfranchisement, this is universal in everywhere i've seen over a few decades, most striking in a place where there was nothing resembling participatory democracy fifty years ago .... so i find believable that iraquis at all levels would desire a voice in their own affairs, but good luck getting them one, you're up against the local flavour of religion, the long-term history of strong-men, and especially against the fact that you're armed foreigners from a single nation across the sea

Had there been a wider and genuine alliance of democracies going in, the job would be a lot easier .... empires take a lot of diplomacy, there is detail and complexity everywhere, you need nuance up the ying-yang, and huge patience at times to avoid making huge mistakes, to make damn sure the lesser evil is in fact lesser ..... some standard of organisation is necessary, but you don't get it by sitting in one capital pronouncing Diktats .... you got to sell the people what they want, or they don't buy



To: Neocon who wrote (142122)8/1/2004 5:45:35 PM
From: Sun Tzu  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
Oh my, such a Euro-centric view of humanity! So you say, " Science did not, per se, exist until about the 16th century", then would it surprise you to know that curiosity, learning, and growth is a fundamental characteristic of all humans and that those living outside of Europe were/are as capable of progress? (you kind of remind me of the General in The Last Samurai who called those warior poets "savages")

But even from this Euro-centric perspective, I can name many societies who contributed greatly to humanity without building empires (or needing to). Chief among them would be the Greek. They were at best a bunch of loosely aligned tribes in scattered islands without any central organization. But their contributions to humanity, be it in political system (how long did it take for the rest of the world realize Democracy?), philosophy, arts, architecture, arithmetic, ethics, etc, is quite impressive. All without the benefit of subjugating other people and building an empire.

Speaking of Empires, I do not use the term as loosely as you seem to do. It seems that you are categorizing any advanced civilization and/or organic growth and advancement of a people as some form of "empire". But to me that is just the course of human development and progress. Empire building on the other hand involves military conquests and forcefully bending other people to your whims.

Now let's see if we can do something about this Western Centric view of the universe you hold:

Google under "ancient Egyptian medicine" and the first link has some impressive results mic.ki.se


Doctors and physician priests did tend to keep detailed notes that described the various conditions encountered, as well as their specific diagnosis and the treatment that was applied. Papyri exist for specific areas such as gynecology, surgery diseases of the eye and their treatment.
This common ailment which was cause by the dusty and arid climate in Kemet were treated with herbs, minerals and other agents that even today scientists regard as being effective treatments. Some minerals used in cosmetics, and considered somewhat toxic if used in large quantities were actually quite effective in arresting certain diseases of the eye.

Within Ancient Kemetic medicine there are extant texts on anatomy , physiology and diagnosis. These texts clearly show a high degree of understanding and knowledge of the human body... The heart and blood vessels were mapped out well considering the existing technology that these people had at their disposal. One such document was the 'treatise of the heart' found in the Ebers Papyrus.


Surgery

...It was not unlikely that an embalmer or funerary priest or Setem Priest would have examined the body and perhaps would have been able to ascertain the cause of the illness or injury that killed the deceased... Surgery, including that of the bone was also considerably advanced in consideration of the technology available to the Ancient Kemetic people. The Edwin Smith Papyrus deals extensively with the setting of bones, traumatic injury such as dislocation of the jaw, arm or shoulders, bruises, various fractures which include those of the limbs, ribs, nose, and skull...In the Edwin Smith Surgical papyrus there are 58 cases, only 16 of which were deemed to be without treatment, leaving 42 detailed accounts as to diagnosis and treatment, most of which are of a purely surgical nature.

Dentistry

The Ancient Kemetic dentists also were known to have used gold wire as a means to bind a loose tooth to a neighboring tooth that was sound, Another thing that the Ancient Kemetic dentists would be to fill them. Sometimes the patient would have their jaw bone drilled in order to drain an abscessed tooth or teeth. Teeth were filled using a type of mineral cement, and gum disease were also treated by using myrrh and other antiseptic herbs.


Prescriptions & Treatment:

Many prescriptions exist today, showing treatment of many disorders and the use of a variety of substances, plant, animal, mineral, as well as the droppings and urine of a number of animals such as crocodiles, hippos, and the like which were indigenous along the Nile in fairly vast numbers. Later, however some animals due to superstition, such as the hippopotamus, were thinned out considerably by hunts. It was probably because of the antibiotic properties found in these droppings that they were recommended so liberally. Also the effectiveness of these fecal materials in birth control, for example the dung of the crocodile was used in preventing conception was widely known.

Honey and milk were routinely prescribed by physicians for the treatment of the respiratory system, and throat irritations. The Ancient Kemetic swnwhad a keen awareness of how to use suppositories of garlic, herbal dressings and enemas and they widely made use of castor oil and understood the powers of aromatherapy in healing issues.

Medications used for the urinary tract show that they, as do their modern Egyptians, suffered from bilharzia (a parasite). Myrrh was sometimes used as well as various vermifuge herbs to help expel these parasites. Head injuries were very often successfully treated by trepanning. This procedure involves the opening of an area of the skull in order to relieve pressure...

Ashoma, a specific disease of the eye was a common complaint...There are several prescriptions for this that have been discovered...


So let's see, so far we have invention of birth control pills, ophthalmology, orthopedics, dentistry, gynocology, etc, all ranging from 5000-2000 years ago, which I believe is way before the 16th C. Imagine how much progress could have been made since then. And just how long did it take to have birth control pill in the West?

BTW, implicit in your post was that only "Science" can be considered progress and other human achievements are not as worthy. But progress does not equate science. Science is only one factor in human progress and since this discussion is about the necessity of empire building in human progress, I don't think we should put undue importance on science.Quite to the contrary, I think it is compassion, arts, philosophy, and what is broadly termed "humanities" in academia that makes us human and is the most important aspect of human progress. Even so, there are sciences beyond physics, math, and chemistry. Anthropology, psychology, even historical analysis, are all forms of science. It was I think

Now let's move on to ancient Persia...btw, the Arabs did not "mainly take over the Byzantine Empire". If anything, you could say they took over the Persian Empire and yes that is where most of their achievements came from, which goes to prove my point that empire building did not bring progress to mankind.

The first Charter of Human Rights was established in Persia derafsh-kaviyani.com

The charter of Cyrus the Great, a baked-clay Aryan language (Old Persian) cuneiform cylinder, was discovered in 1878 in excavation of the site of Babylon. In it, Cyrus the Great described his human treatment of the inhabitants of Babylonia after its conquest by the Iranians.

The document has been hailed as the first charter of human rights, and in 1971 the United Nations was published translation of it in all the official U.N. languages. "May Ahura Mazda protect this land, this nation, from rancor, from foes, from falsehood, and from drought". Selected from the book "The Eternal Land".

This is a confirmation that the Charter of freedom of Humankind issued by Cyrus the Great on his coronation day in Babylon could be considered superior to the Human Rights Manifesto issued by the French revolutionaries in their first national assembly. The Human Rights Manifesto looks very interesting in its kind regarding the expressions and composition, but the Charter of Freedom issued twenty three centuries before that by the Iranian monarch sounds more spiritual.

Comparing the Human Rights Manifesto of the French National Assembly and the Charter approved by the United Nations with the Charter of Freedom of Cyrus, the latter appears more valuable considering its age, explicitness, and rejection of the superstitions of the ancient world.
...

On this historical turning point, by order of Cyrus, all the captive nationalities held as slaves for generations in Babylon were freed and the return to their homeland was financed. Among the liberated captives were 50,000 Jews held in Babylon for three generations whose return toward the rebuilding of their temple in Palestine, a policy that was followed by Darius and his successors. Some of the liberated Jews were invited to and did settle in Persia. Because of such a generous act, Cyrus has been anointed in the Bible. He is the only gentile in the Bible, who has been titled Messiah, an is mentioned explicitly as the Lord's shepherd and his anointed (Messiah). Other references to Cyrus are attested in Isaiah 45:4
where Cyrus is called by name and given a title of honor; he is also called to rebuild the God's city and free His people (Is. 45:13) and is chosen, called and brought successful by God (Is. 48:14-15).
...
Now that I put the crown of kingdom of Iran, Babylon, and the nations of the four directions on the head with the help of (Ahura) Mazda, I announce that I will respect the traditions, customs and religions of the nations of my empire and never let any of my governors and subordinates look down on or insult them until I am alive. From now on, till (Ahura) Mazda grants me the kingdom favor, I will impose my monarchy on no nation. Each is free to accept it , and if any one of them rejects it , I never resolve on war to reign. Until I am the king of Iran, Babylon, and the nations of the four directions, I never let anyone oppress any others, and if it occurs , I will take his or her right back and penalize the oppressor.

And until I am the monarch, I will never let anyone take possession of movable and landed properties of the others by force or without compensation. Until I am alive, I prevent unpaid, forced labor. To day, I announce that everyone is free to choose a religion. People are free to live in all regions and take up a job provided that they never violate other's rights.

No one could be penalized for his or her relatives' faults. I prevent slavery and my governors and subordinates are obliged to prohibit exchanging men and women as slaves within their own ruling domains. Such a traditions should be exterminated the world over.

I implore to (Ahura) Mazda to make me succeed in fulfilling my obligations to the nations of Iran, Babylon, and the ones of the four directions.



I'd say this charter is far greater human achievement than most scientific discoveries...which brings us to Buddhism. It is insulting to hear you say, "Whatever enlightenment Buddha might have brought, it had to do with escaping the Wheel of Rebirth, and not much else", but you are free to form your opinions based on your understanding (or lack there of). I have included some opinions from well respected scientists about Buddhism, you can fallow up on them or not, as you see fit.

Not only did Buddha transform many countries and brought about peace and humanity to them through conversion by choice rather than by sword, something that I must say neither Christianity nor Islam (and probably not Judaism) can claim, Buddhist writings include treatise on quantum mechanics, advance topics on nature of time, and cognitive psychology just to name a few. In fact the Bush administration has dedicated the largest budget yet for the study of Buddhist meditation on brain and the effects of those physical changes on the people (we are talking about physical change here and the tool at hand is Functional MRI). Other scientists, especially in the field of Cognitive Psychology have learned quite a lot from Buddhist monks. Most say that Buddhism is very scientific in its approach which is why they can easily relate to Buddhist practices. If you have a fair understanding of Quantum Mechanics and M-Theory, you can read up on Dogen and his explanations of Buddha's discourses on nature of time and space. Here are some references for you:


home.btclick.com
Experiments in quantum physics seem to demonstrate the need for an observer to be present to make potentialities become real...Quantum physics is an outstandingly successful mathematical description of the behavior of matter and energy at the level of fundamental particles. No discrepancy of any kind between the predictions of quantum theory and experimental observation has ever been found [PENROSE 1990a]...Basically, what quantum theory says is that fundamental particles are empty of inherent existence and exist in an undefined state of potentialities. They have no inherent existence from their own side and do not become 'real' until a mind interacts with them and gives them meaning. Whenever and wherever there is no mind there is no meaning and no reality. This is a similar conclusion to the Mahayana Buddhist teachings on sunyata. The ultimate manifestation of quantum sunyata is when quantum theory is applied to the entire universe. According to some cosmologists, the universe began as a quantum fluctuation in the limitless Void (Hartle-Hawking hypothesis). The universe remained as a huge quantum superposition of all possible states until the first primordial mind observed it, causing it to collapse into one actuality. This fascinating theory is discussed in The Participatory Anthropic Principle. (more discussions here science.slashdot.org )

student-www.uchicago.edu
Buddhism and Cognitive Science
“The religion of the future should transcend a personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both natural and spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description…If ever there is any religion that would cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism.”
-Albert Einstein [1]... Much of the scientific study of meditation tends to support the claims of Buddhist practitioners as well as modern theories of attention, memory, and concept formation. In one experiment measuring meditators’ abilities to control spontaneous intrusive thoughts, Fabbro and Muzur et al. employed Baddeley’s idea of articulatory suppression, the engagement of the phonological loop in order to control unwanted thoughts. Groups of individuals trained in meditative techniques were found to have fewer intrusive thoughts than a control group in a task using the recitation of the Ave Maria prayer as an articulatory suppressant and a working memory task in the form of numerical memorization. [9]...The enactive paradigm has had numerous repercussions on research approaches as well as normative approaches. Autopoeitic computer programming has enriched the fields of robotics and AI, aiding in the design of machines that “adapt” more deeply to shifting environments. Websites for therapists to share resources on autopoeitic therapy philosophies have bloomed on the Internet. This development seems to continue a popular interest in cognitive-behavioral-type therapy modes, which emphasize a dynamic, proactive emergence of identity over the inert, taxidermic psychoanalysis strategies of yore. Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy, developed by Albert Ellis, has been compared to Vipassana (insight) meditation, in that both practices are predicated to a similar extent on the idea that emotion is mediated by cognition.


purifymind.com
It is now increasingly becoming clear to those who reach the front lines of modern science that what science has been discovering a new had been known to the Buddha over 2500 years ago. This is confirmed by the following statements made by topmost scientists of the twentieth century.

Albert Einstein regarded as the father of the theory of relativity says,

"Individual existence impresses him as a sort of prison and he wants to experience the universe as a single cosmic whole. The beginnings of cosmic religious feeling already appear at an early stage of development, as an example in the Psalms of David and in some of the Prophets. Buddhism, as we have learned especially from the wonderful writings of Schopenhaur, contains a much stronger element of this."

Niels Bohr who developed the presently accepted model of the atom together with Earnest Rutherford says,

"For a parallel to the lesson of atomic theory….. (we must turn) to those kind of epistemological problems with which already thinkers like the Buddha and Lao Tzu have been confronted, when trying to harmonize our position as spectators and actors in the drama of existence."

The most eminent Nuclear Physicist, Robert Oppenheimer, who produced the first atom bomb says,

"The general notions about human understanding … which are illustrated by discoveries in atomic physics are not in the nature of things wholly unfamiliar, wholly unheard of, or new. Even in our own culture they have a history, and in Buddhist and Hindu thought a more considerable and central place. What we shall find is an exemplification, an encouragement and a refinement of old wisdom." - Robert Oppenheimer.



Incidentally, do you consider social sciences as "science"? If so, you should note that Ibn Khaldun of Morocco (or Tunis depending the source) fathered the discipline of Sociology over 4 centuries before the French Auguste Comte (1798-1857) who is credited in the West with its establishment.. He was an amazingly original genius and was the world's first historian to develop and explicate the general laws that govern the rise and decline of civilizations. His "Introduction" has been called the greatest human achievement on the subject (by Bertrand Russell, I think). I can go on numerous achievements by non-Western scientists centuries before Europe caught up with them.

Anyways, I hope to have to put to rest the idea that (1) we need empires in order to progress, and (2) that "Science did not, per se, exist until about the 16th century".

Sun Tzu