SI
SI
discoversearch

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor.  We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community.  If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.
Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Bilow who wrote (142167)7/31/2004 4:09:08 PM
From: stockman_scott  Respond to of 281500
 
A Newsweek poll claims many in our country may be looking for 'Regime Change' in Washington...fyi...

_____________________________

<<58% dissatisfied with direction of the country; 57% say War had not made US safer...>>

prnewswire.com

from the same Newsweek poll:

Regarding foreign policy issues, among registered voters, 43 percent say
the Bush administration has not done enough to involve major allies and
international organizations; 38 percent say they've done the right amount. But
60 percent say the administration's policies and diplomatic efforts have led
to more anti-Americanism around the world; just 9 percent say they've improved
America's image around the world, the poll shows. And 71 percent of registered
voters say the way people in other countries feel about the United States
should matter at least somewhat (38% say a lot) to our political leaders in
Washington.

Fifty-seven percent of registered voters say going to war with Iraq has
not made America safer from terrorism and 58 percent say they are not
satisfied with the way things are going in the U.S., the poll shows.



To: Bilow who wrote (142167)7/31/2004 8:43:53 PM
From: Rascal  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
The Sorrow of War..

Sounds like the Harp of Burma to me. About WW2 and a Japanese soldier burying dead soldiers in Burma. Book & Film

geocities.com

Rascal @HanoiBlair.com



To: Bilow who wrote (142167)8/8/2004 7:07:11 PM
From: cnyndwllr  Respond to of 281500
 
Carl, re: "Atrocities are universal in war, but what is also universal is an inclination to minimize one's own side's contribution and to maximize the other. Humans love to gossip. Even in the verifiable historical absence of any atrocities at all, stories of atrocities will still be rumored.

In the context of Vietnam you write that "[t]here's no denying that there were atrocities, as there were convictions for some of them. Where the left is wrong is in suggesting that atrocities were common. Where the right is wrong is in minimizing the amount of atrocities.

But I do believe that atrocities were common in Vietnam and the basis for that belief is not solely based on "gossip." I think that war was tailor made to create a climate that virtually guaranteed that atrocities would commonly occur. Part of my belief is based on common sense, part is based on the "rumors" and "gossip" you reference, and part is based upon my knowledge of the command climate of our leaders in Vietnam and the attitudes of the men I served with there.

Setting aside the "rumors," consider that the path to promotion for most officers at the platoon level up to the division command level was "body count." That required that contact be made, firefights ensue and the number of enemy dead far exceed the amount of American casualties. Think about that.

Think about what kind of attitudes develop when the "mission" is not to take a piece of ground or defend it but rather to simply "kill and kill a lot." The goal, simply stated, is to create a lot of blown up, shot, and dead bodies. And for THAT you get rewarded. How much caution and care do you think that "mission" fostered in the attack dogs sent to maim and destroy. How many officers do you think gave a speech that said; "I want you to seek out, blow up and kill every gook you find without hesitation, remorse or mercy, and, by the way, if you shoot the wrong people I'll have your ass?"

I can tell you that in most units they didn't get the "have your ass" speech. Dead civilians were written off before they were cool. In My Lai, in the Tiger Force, in combat units and in chopper and bomber units, it's likely that almost all of those who went up the ladder to complain were told to shut up and get back to work. Because NO OFFICER wanted a big black mark beside his name when his whole CARREER depended on this golden opportunity to get his combat ticket punched with a gold star beside his name. The proof of this is in the handling of the known incidents and the lack of prosecution in many other suspected incidents THAT WERE REPORTED.

So start with the assumption that the troops had a virtual green light to commit atrocities. Add in the fact that death was very, very common in Vietnam with tens or hundreds of Vietnamese dead each of the middle years of the war so that men became inoculated against the horror of death. Then add in the most compelling element of all; the very nature of the war.

In Vietnam there were many areas where the civilian populations were in the middle of active enemy attack zones. In fact in many of those areas the enemy came from the ranks of the civilian populations and melted back into them for concealment, shelter, support and recruitment.

Imagine that you were a combat soldier working in areas where there were lots of villages. Your company, your platoon, and your squad was constantly under the threat of attack. Booby traps took your buddies lives or left them legless and screaming in pain. Snipers hit you from a distance and could strike at any time from any place. Little kids led you into ambushes. Women provided intelligence to the enemy on your movements. Everyone you saw seemed to have a look of thinly veiled hatred. And no matter how hard you got hit or how many friends you lost, there seemed to be no one to shoot back at. They just melted away into the villages and although you knew they were there, you didn't know who they were. Was it that old man, that teenager, that little 12 year old kid, that woman carrying rice in two buckets strung across her back?

You didn't know who it was but you knew they were there in those villages and you knew those villagers were helping, supporting and supplying them. And you were scared shitless and angry as hell because you'd lost friends and you could be next.

How many people do you know in those circumstances who wouldn't find some excuse to call in an artillery or bomb strike on the village, or to retaliate against any single sniper shot from that direction by opening up on the village? Or worse yet, how many do you know who would actually pull the trigger on the defenseless men and women in the village the way almost the entire Calley company did in My Lai.

If you say that's not human nature then you haven't been around frightened angry people. Sure there are people who rise above that fear and do the right thing, but they're the exception, not the rule.

So when you try to compare the years those situations existed throughout a significant percentage of Vietnam, with events in other wars, think about the "facts on the ground," and then ask yourself whether the rotten stew that was Vietnam might have had something to do with the commonality of the atrocities that those like Kerry and I, and a lot of others, are convinced were endemic in Vietnam.



To: Bilow who wrote (142167)8/8/2004 7:52:45 PM
From: Maurice Winn  Respond to of 281500
 
Re the fake head-hacking: <Special agent LaRae said the matter was still under investigation, and the FBI was "pursuing any and all legal avenues of prosecution in the matter".

"We're working with our US Attorney's office, as well as local law enforcement, trying to find the appropriate avenue of prosecution, if any," she said.

"We are trying to determine what laws may have been broken by such an act."
>

What a joke. The USA now is making April Fools Day illegal.

Which is ironic given the amount of fakery in the USA. We could start with seriously harmful lies and deceits such as have caused a lot of dead people.

If something is so obscurely illegal, it can't be much of a law that it's breaking.

There are usually some laws available for getting anyone, such as "disorderly behaviour", "incitement", "laughing at authorities", "failing to get approval from Government Agencies A, B, C, D, E, J, M, P1, P2, P3, R, V, T, W1 and 2".

Obviously Special Agent LaRae is an ignoramus who should be prosecuted for breaking laws protecting individual human rights, harassment, dereliction of duty, vexatious litigation, making the FBI seem like clowns, and general stupidity. FBI management will no doubt be searching through the books to see what laws can be used to "get" LaRae.

Here's an idea. If a law doesn't jump up and hit them in the face, why don't they just ignore it and get something useful to do. Such as finding actual terrorists.

Mqurice



To: Bilow who wrote (142167)8/8/2004 8:22:46 PM
From: GST  Respond to of 281500
 
Iraq Issues Warrants for Chalabi, Nephew
1 hour, 31 minutes ago

By JAMIE TARABAY, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraq (news - web sites) has issued arrest warrants for Ahmad Chalabi, a former Governing Council member with strong U.S. ties, on counterfeiting charges, and for his nephew Salem Chalabi — head of the tribunal trying Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) — on murder charges, Iraq's chief investigating judge said Sunday.


The warrant was the latest strike against Ahmad Chalabi in his removal from the centers of power. A longtime Iraqi exile opposition leader, he had been a favorite of many in the Pentagon (news - web sites) but fell out with the Americans in the weeks before the U.S. occupation ended in June.

Both men denied the charges, dismissing them as part of a political conspiracy against them and their family.

Salem Chalabi, named as a suspect in the June murder of Haithem Fadhil, director general of the finance ministry, called the accusation "ridiculous." His uncle said the charges were "outrageous" and "manufactured lies."

Ahmad Chalabi was somewhat marginalized when he was left out of the new interim government that took power June 28 but has since worked to reposition himself as a Shiite populist. At the helm of the war crimes tribunal for Saddam, the Ivy League-educated Salem Chalabi remains a central figure in Iraq.

"They should be arrested and then questioned and ... if there is enough evidence, they will be sent to trial," Judge Zuhair al-Maliky said.

In Washington, the Bush administration had no comment about the charges against the Chalabis. "This is a matter for the Iraqi authorities to resolve and they are taking steps to do so," White House spokeswoman Suzy DeFrancis.

The warrants, issued Saturday, accused Ahmad Chalabi of counterfeiting old Iraqi dinars, which were removed from circulation after the ouster of Saddam's regime last year.

Iraqi police backed by U.S. troops found counterfeit money along with old dinars during a raid on Chalabi's house in Baghdad in May, al-Maliky said. He apparently was mixing counterfeit and real money and changing them into new dinars on the street, the judge said.

The accusation is not Ahmad Chalabi's first brush with legal problems. He is wanted in Jordan for a 1991 conviction in absentia for fraud in a banking scandal. He was sentenced to 22 years in jail, but has denied all allegations.

The men were out of the country Sunday but promised to return to Iraq to face the allegations.

"I'm now mobilized on all fronts to rebuff all these charges," Ahmad Chalabi told CNN from Tehran, Iran, where he was attending an economic conference. "Nobody's above the law, and I submit to the law in Iraq ... despite my serious and grave reservations about this court."

"I don't think ... that I had anything to do with the charges so I'm not actually worried about it," Salem Chalabi told CNN from London. "It's a ridiculous charge, that I threatened somebody ... there's no proof there."

If convicted, Salem Chalabi, 41, could face the death penalty, which was restored by Iraqi officials on Sunday, al-Maliky said. His uncle, who is in his late 50s, would face a sentence determined by trial judges.

Born in Baghdad, the younger Chalabi studied at Yale, Columbia and Northwestern University and holds degrees in law and international affairs. He served as a legal adviser to the interim Iraqi Governing Council and was a member of the 10-member committee framing the basic transitional law for the new interim government.

But Ahmad Chalabi's star has steadily declined. He was once considered Washington's most likely choice for Iraqi president after Saddam's fall, but he was never popular in Iraq and ended up without a job in the new government.

A frequent guest on news talk shows in the United States, Ahmad Chalabi had significant, and controversial, influence on America's Iraq policy before the war. His network of Iraqi exiles in the Iraqi National Congress provided the Bush administration, and some news organizations, with reports on Saddam's purported weapons of mass destruction programs.



Those weapons were cited by the United States and Britain as the primary justification for the Iraq war. When no significant weapons stocks were found, Chalabi became a liability. He has continued to insist that the weapons exist.

Chalabi also was accused recently of informing Iran that the United States had broken its secret intelligence codes, a charge he branded as "stupid." And around the time of the raid on his house, U.S. officials privately complained that Chalabi was interfering with a U.S. inquiry into money skimmed from the U.N. oil-for-food program by pursuing his own probe.

As relations with his American backers soured, he has tried use the fallout to enhance his stature among Iraqis, many of whom saw him as an American puppet.

"I've risen higher in the esteem of my people and I'm now much better positioned politically in the country, because I'm in sympathy with my people. This is what it is all about," Chalabi said Sunday.

Among his campaigns to win favor with Iraqis have been purging Baath party members from the Iraqi government and attempting to set up an exclusively Shiite political party. He recently played peacemaker in ending violence in the Shiite holy city of Najaf in June.


story.news.yahoo.com